Modeling vs. Real Tube for live vs. recording

  • Thread starter Thread starter Rickson Gracie
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Rickson Gracie

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I am a purist when it comes to Tube amps. I have 3-4 really nice tube amps (Marshall 1974x, AC15, Gibson Ga5, Superbaby head...etc) For recording I will only use one of these awesome amps.

BUT i also have a VOX ad60 vtx modelling amp and I admit it is an awesome amp. for live jamming or playing out its perfect. its loud, extremely versatile has nice built in effects and pretty lightweight. i can tell that its not a real tube but i think most people cant. I would never even consider using it for recording though.

does anyone else feel this way?
 
whatever sounds good to you...

and whatever you have the ability to record well!!!

i prefer software modellers anyday.
 
I'm actually the total reverse. I think modeling, while not 100% there yet, is a pretty useful technology for recording, especially when you get into reamping and the like. The ability to bust out a box and record damned good sounding demos at 4AM is pretty game-changing for the home recording industry.

That said, there is NOTHING like the feel of a good tube amp, and dialed in right my experience (and most of the experiences of the people I've talked with) is that while all-modeling bands manage to do OK, if you try to mix modeling with tubes, the tube rib is going to cut through and absolutely annihilate the modeling one.

Live is where tubes come into their own - their touch-sensitivity and response, and the factr you HAVE to turn them up just to keep up with the rest of the band.

FWIW, I record with a tube amp, too, but I think modeling makes way more sense in a studio environment than it does live, and I'm sort of tempted to grab a Pod XT for demoing and the occasional odd overdub.
 
I would say to use what sounds good to you and you're comfortable with. There is a certain magic that happens when you play the gear that works for you, no matter what the technology.
 
I would say to use what sounds good to you and you're comfortable with. There is a certain magic that happens when you play the gear that works for you, no matter what the technology.

I'm with you Drew. Nothing beats playing through my tube amp. There's a depth and energy in the room that none of my modelliing approaches. But when I listen to recorded tracks--the modelling holds up better than it did as a "jamming" source in the room. And yep, I'm a night owl too. It's pretty cool to nail parts down at 2 & 3 in the morning.
 
I'm a modeling snob by necessity. I would love to be able to use a nice tube amp, but my neighbors would have me strung up. So, I use a Toneport and I honestly love the tones I can get from it.
 
wanted to agree on one point - people in the audience can't usually hear a difference. Just like they can't usually tell if you're playing a really nice acoustic vs. an "ok" one.

But that's NOT to say it doesn't matter. An instrument (and amps are extensions of our instruments), if it feels/sounds right to the player, makes a difference to the player, which can then be heard by the audience.

Audiences usually don't A/B players' rigs, though, so if you're half decent, they'll enjoy it any way :D As long as your rig doesn't make you hate your sound, you're in good shape. JMHO.
 
wanted to agree on one point - people in the audience can't usually hear a difference. Just like they can't usually tell if you're playing a really nice acoustic vs. an "ok" one.

But that's NOT to say it doesn't matter. An instrument (and amps are extensions of our instruments), if it feels/sounds right to the player, makes a difference to the player, which can then be heard by the audience.

Audiences usually don't A/B players' rigs, though, so if you're half decent, they'll enjoy it any way :D As long as your rig doesn't make you hate your sound, you're in good shape. JMHO.

That's an excellent point. One that I was aware of, because as a musician I could be sitting in an audience and not be able to tell if the guitars was tubes or SS or modelled. That's why I played with a POD and a small SS amp for so long.

Then I played a sweet tube amp. It blew me away from a players perspective. I don't expect folks in the audience to know the difference--but I do. And I enjoy my own sound so much more, that it actually pushes me and makes me play better with the nicer tube amp...
 
I'm with you Drew. Nothing beats playing through my tube amp. There's a depth and energy in the room that none of my modelliing approaches. But when I listen to recorded tracks--the modelling holds up better than it did as a "jamming" source in the room. And yep, I'm a night owl too. It's pretty cool to nail parts down at 2 & 3 in the morning.

I eventually just gave my old J-Station to a buddy of mine who'd just had to sell his rig, but I kind of miss having it around. In college I did most of my recording with it, and I have to say, there were a couple nights at like 4 in the morning where I'd just happen to have lost track of time while recording, and sort of hit this ethereal, sort of free-associative zone where I laid down some leads that when I listened back to the next morning I was proud of.

Hell, this is the track I had in mind - I forgot I had it online. I cut this years and years ago on Sonic Foundry's Acid 2.0 back when that was cutting edge, so the mix is a little rough and the tone definitely suffered at the hands of my el cheapo built in soundcard in my laptop, but that said... The majority of this was recorded at 4AM one Saturday night/Sunday morning, after I'd been jamming on a similar set of chords that evening. Kind of a tranced out trip hip "stare at your ceiling" sort of tune, but it was fun, and was totally a product of that dead quiet dorm room where everyone else was asleep but me.

"Siren's Song"

Then I played a sweet tube amp. It blew me away from a players perspective. I don't expect folks in the audience to know the difference--but I do. And I enjoy my own sound so much more, that it actually pushes me and makes me play better with the nicer tube amp...

This is TOTALLY true, too. You just play better when you're digging your tone.
 
I still play out with a Vox AD120vt all the time. Its got vintage tubes and a combo of Celestion Blue Alnico and V30 speakers in it now. When I first did the tube and speaker changeout I had it next to my mid 60's AC30 (which has now been replaced by a Dividedby13 because the old Vox was a maintenance hog). The modeller Vox and the original Vox were deadly similar both to myself and the other guitar guys around at the time. On the AC30 setting, they could have been nearly identical tones. But the modeler gives me much more than the one amp, and the floorboard helps me change patches and settings quickly during a song.
 
im my experience the modelers just dont sit in the mix as well in a recording but live it just doesnt matter as much.

to me a recording is like a work of art. i dont want to use an artificial simulation of a tube amp when i will hear this recording forever while in a live situation its more of a one time deal it doesnt matter as much.
 
believe it or not, when i'm at a show with 3-4 bands playing and wondering if i'm going to stick around... if i see a kid putting a Line 6 Spider whatever on stage I usually split. When I see a kid loading up a really nice vintage tube amp I usually stick around.

If you can hear any difference, the audience is going to hear the difference as well.
 
believe it or not, when i'm at a show with 3-4 bands playing and wondering if i'm going to stick around... if i see a kid putting a Line 6 Spider whatever on stage I usually split. When I see a kid loading up a really nice vintage tube amp I usually stick around.

If you can hear any difference, the audience is going to hear the difference as well.

Yeah, you or I might do that, but a good portion of the audience wouldn't know a vintage tube amp on sight if they tripped over it. It's not something than non-players will distinguish and then act on.
 
It just depends on the model, and the project, or gig. I say "model," because just saying "POD" or "Tonelab" or whatever, just doesn't get specific enough. I've found one amp model so far that Line 6 has that really is great... it's their plexi model. I've used it on a ton of recordings, mostly those I've been hired for, but it still sounds great to me. One world-class guitarist that uses a POD for his live shows is Lincoln Brewster. I had the pleasure of an extremely unique learning experience with him. It was during a large music festival a few years back. In the morning, I was able to attend a small seminar he gave. He answered questions, many about his tone, and touted the POD as his tone source, saying that he needs the consistancy it provides when he travels and doesn't take his own PA, like at the large outdoor music festivals. In the afternoon, he played in a large circus tent for about two thousand folks.... he even stopped the show to ask the FOH engineer to solo his guitar, so the folks that had been at the seminar could hear the POD. That evening, he was on the main stage with about 40,000 people outdoors at the amphitheater. In the smaller concert, you could tell he was using a pod, but it still was very passable. In the large concert, you could not tell, and it sounded great.
That said, one of the best tones I've heard a guy have live is Eric Johnson. To explain his rig in this post would be too much, and make a long winded post more like a book. BUT, if you study his rig HERE <-CLICKY, you'll see that he goes to great lengths to process his live sound just like in the studio, adding time based effects after the microphone and controlling the whole thing from the stage. When you think about it, this is what a modeller is doing...the whole processed studio-like sound. This is the approach I've taken live, but you have to have a great monitor system. I use a hybrid approach... running a modeller into a 30 watt class a poweramp, and then into a speaker which lives in an isolation box (so I can crank that sucker without hearing the sound man cry.) This is the best really.... the flexibility of a modeled preamp, ran into a cranked to the max 30w EL84 tube poweramp, into a 12" speaker miced with an SM57, then into the board where my reverb is added. Then I have my own monitor mixer by my side, and a sweet pair of in-ears. The sub is just under the stage beneath my feet, and it tickles my feet when we play. It works well!

Peace!!

~Shawn
 
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Having been an studio engineer and running live sound for several years now I can say that I still prefer the way a good tube amp sounds in nearly every single situation I can think of. I have used POD's a few times in recordings and they worked fairly well but nothing that a good tube amp couldn't do as well if not better. However, all that being said, I doubt most non players would have any clue whether a player was playing a tube amp or a modeler in a live situation, or even on a record for that matter.
 
Yeah, you or I might do that, but a good portion of the audience wouldn't know a vintage tube amp on sight if they tripped over it. It's not something than non-players will distinguish and then act on.

Sure your not underestimating the ears of non-guitar players?
 
I generally like single note leads through modelers better than chords/rhythm parts. One thing that *can* be completely missing with modelers, but can't easily be missing with an amp is the feedback loop that is completed by the speaker moving the air moving the guitar strings (and other parts of the guitar? maybe a little). The 3AM modeler sessions with headphones miss that part.

Another thing to notice is that everyone is saying a "good tube amp", as they should. It's possible to have a not-so-good tube amp (I've got a few), and they're not necessarily better than a good model :D
 
feedback loop!! now that is where the plugin guys should be focusing on because that is the holy grail.
 
Bump to the interaction between amp and gtr. I still like my modelers they serve their purpose.
 
If I can't get what I'm looking for in front of a mic I'll try the POD.

We're still finding uses for the variax even though we have teles and strats and SGs and Rics...

You have to tweak on the modeler a bit, and there's a guitar or two that doesn't seem to play nice.
 
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