Mixing with clients (i.e. managing people in the room)

Chris Shaeffer

Chris Shaeffer

Peavey ROCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyone want to talk about tips and tricks for managing the band while mixing?

Here's what I have coming up and why I'm thinking about it.

A young, very cool band has already recorded their demo- engineered by a co-worker of mine who is solid but not phenomenal- and I'm going to mix it. Its a rare treat to mix something that I didn't track, so I'm excited about the project. I've known the singer since he was 14, the rest of the guys I've met so far seem cool and appreciative...

But I can tell they're nervous I'm going to change it or do something they don't want. The guitarist has mentioned a couple times "I like the way the guitars sound now..." and the singer is obsessing on his parts. Again, nice guys, but I smell potential trouble. They co-wrote all the songs so there is no one who can serve as a de-facto producer- and they don't have anyone else playing that role.

What I want to do is mix it by myself, but the band members live pretty far apart and only meet once a week to rehearse. They have a hard deadline coming up- if we have to mix, gather, listen, leave, fix, gather, listen, etc.- we probably won't get it done all that well.

My gut tells me that they'll like my mixes, but have a host of conflcting minor changes they want to make. If I have them all there I'm pretty certain that it'll work if I can manage them correctly. That means I'm looking at doing semi-final draft mixes on my own then scheduling the band for a final polishing session...

And ideas for how to prepare them? Pitfalls to avoid? Anyone have stories or insights about mising with the whole band present? I know I can give them really good mixes that they'll be very happy with- I just don't want the process, which appears to be getting more and more charged for them as the project moves towards completion, to be a cause for tension in the band.

Take care,
Chris
 
If someone asks you to turn them up ... and they're already way up in the mix as it is ... then just fiddle with some knob somewhere and ask him "Is that better?"

If they tell you they want the mix to sound more powerful, then just turn up the volume on the monitors, and ask "Is that powerful enough? Tell me when to stop." Once they're happy, stop, and tell them: "Yea. I like it. That was a great idea. It's much more powerful now."
 
Buy a playstion & load in Madden or Live or some other popular game... Put the couch at the back of the control room with a the tv right in front of it.

It will solve most of your problems if not all of them. :D
 
Ha!

Then I'll have to post a "How to mix with a playstation in the room?" thread!! :D

Chess: good call. I've done stuff like that before, but I've never thought of just turning the volume up on the monitors. As another thought to kind of forestall questions about stuff I was tweaking when the volume was lower- just turn it up loud for band listening sessions. "Oh, yeah! That's what it should sound like!"

I'm also thinking if they start being silly about it I could press different mixes for them and let them wrangle it out on their own time. Seems like that would just be putting off the tension- kind of a mean thing to do. I'm actually mixing them analog...well, because I want to... and so they can't call me and say "hey, can we tweak the pro tools session and fix this little bit..."

Take care,
Chris

-Chris
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
Anyone want to talk about tips and tricks for managing the band while mixing?

Here's what I have coming up and why I'm thinking about it.

A young, very cool band has already recorded their demo- engineered by a co-worker of mine who is solid but not phenomenal- and I'm going to mix it. Its a rare treat to mix something that I didn't track, so I'm excited about the project. I've known the singer since he was 14, the rest of the guys I've met so far seem cool and appreciative...

But I can tell they're nervous I'm going to change it or do something they don't want. The guitarist has mentioned a couple times "I like the way the guitars sound now..." and the singer is obsessing on his parts. Again, nice guys, but I smell potential trouble. They co-wrote all the songs so there is no one who can serve as a de-facto producer- and they don't have anyone else playing that role.

What I want to do is mix it by myself, but the band members live pretty far apart and only meet once a week to rehearse. They have a hard deadline coming up- if we have to mix, gather, listen, leave, fix, gather, listen, etc.- we probably won't get it done all that well.

My gut tells me that they'll like my mixes, but have a host of conflcting minor changes they want to make. If I have them all there I'm pretty certain that it'll work if I can manage them correctly. That means I'm looking at doing semi-final draft mixes on my own then scheduling the band for a final polishing session...

And ideas for how to prepare them? Pitfalls to avoid? Anyone have stories or insights about mising with the whole band present? I know I can give them really good mixes that they'll be very happy with- I just don't want the process, which appears to be getting more and more charged for them as the project moves towards completion, to be a cause for tension in the band.

Take care,
Chris
Click to expand...


You can't mix effectively with the band present. They're going to be nervous nellies. The band shouldn't come in until you're almost done, and in need of their perspective. When you're tweaking the mix with the band, you need to be sure to run the session. You also need to have an open mind. They're the band, and they have a vision (hopefully). Be open to their vision. But that openness goes two ways, and you must get them to open up too. The best way to do that is by example.

Oblige the band's requests. BUT, it is important for you to translate their request, because they are not mixers.

"The vocal is too loud in the chorus."

Maybe the guitars are too soft.

Whatever you do, don't talk down to them. Treat them with respect. And explain yourself. If one of their requests or ideas doesn't work, you'd better have good and demonstratable reasons WHY it doesn't work. But most importantly of all, you need to figure out WHAT it is they are trying to fix.

If you do the mix and send it to them, they'll hate it. You must involve the band. It's critical. You just can't involve them too early in the process.

Mixerman
 
Chris Shaeffer said:
"hey, can we tweak the pro tools session and fix this little bit..."
Click to expand...

This is the biggest advantage to working completely in the analog domain for me. I can deliver a mix, and they can't tweak one little inconsequential thing . . . every day fo the next 30 days.

This forces bands to sign off on mixes, and be SURE they have what they want. Yes, we can do recalls, but it's enough of a pain that everyone wants to avoid it.

Mixerman
 
Mixerman said:
But that openness goes two ways, and you must get them to open up too. The best way to do that is by example.
Click to expand...

This is the "setting up the vibe" of mixing, isn't it? I've had a lot of practive making artists comfortable enough to get good takes... but its a different skill to set up the artists to effectively judge a mix. Its not their skill and *their* work is now in *your* hands.

How odd that must feel! To suddenly be on the consumer side of something YOU created. No wonder they feel so odd and get jittery.

Sounds like communication is really important- being able to ask the right questions to sort out what they want, and being able to clearly explain what I'm doing and why. Not technically, but artistically. I've wowed clients with tech speak before, but its not really meaningful as an answer to the question "What are you doing?" "Patching in a different compressor" doesn't mean anything- "I'm going to try and fatten the bass up a different way to see if that works better."

I always check that the band members agree with each other, too: make eye contact and watch their body language as well- one of them will often tend to agree with his/her words but not the body. I just know this stuff from being a teacher- its pretty easy to spot someone who's not fully in agreement. I usually say something like "You look like you've got something on your mind" or "John, you haven't said much the last few minutes. What are you thinking?" Just open up a space for them even if they decide not to take it.

Good stuff to think about. I already feel a bit more prepared. Thanks, Mixerman.

Take care,
Chris
 
I never let bands in until the mix is at least 50% done if I can help it. They are there for fine tuning only. I explain to them that before we can really mix we need to do some edits, channel mutes, etc... that will bore them to death if they are there.

For the most part ALL bands care about is SOUND and LEVEL. If you did your job right as a recordist the sound should be there (unless the clients are changing their minds, in which case you are in deep crap); then they are looking at the mix from a perspective of balance levels.

I make sure to have a definite idea of what the band wants the finished product to sound like during the pre-production so that I can deliver this by the time they hear the first rough mixes. My aim with my rough mixes is to so totally blow them away with the sound that they don't want to alter it much at all.

The other trick is to present everything that could screw your mix as a compromise. Example:

Guitar Player: "Hey the guitars aren't loud enough!"
Me: "Okay, but we'll lose some of the drums and vocals if we add more guitar."
Drummer: "Yeah, now the drums aren't loud enough!"
Singer: "Put the guitars back so the vocal comes out."

Granted, this can sometimes backfire on you. In general I prefer to let the band police itself as far as not letting anything become too dominant. If that fails you can always make them believe that you are pushing the envelope as far as it can go by over and undershooting things.

It's a delicate balancing act dealing with the "talent." The thing that sucks is the more help the band needs from the mix the more picky they get, and therefore more tied your hands become to actually make it sound good.
 
Make sure that everybody understands and agrees their role (including yours) before you even step into the CR. Are you going to be their mixing engineer or aren't you? Any degree of that is fine, as long as everybody understands what's up before-hand.

Pick a band leader, if there isn't one already (and assuming there isn't a manager and/or producer). This is the one guy to deal with. If he wants to co-mix or co-produce, then he can spend the time in the CR with you. But - with very rare exceptions - you don't want the whole band in the room with you during mixing. You'll have 17 different opinions on what to do and nobody will get anywhere. Have a basketball net set up out back, send them out on food/beer runs, or just send them home. Whatever you can do to keep them busy and happy; just keep them out of the business end of the studio while mixing.

Set the expectations and define the jobs/roles for everybody early and you'll have far fewer headaces later.

G.
 
chessrock said:
If someone asks you to turn them up ... and they're already way up in the mix as it is ... then just fiddle with some knob somewhere and ask him "Is that better?"

If they tell you they want the mix to sound more powerful, then just turn up the volume on the monitors, and ask "Is that powerful enough? Tell me when to stop." Once they're happy, stop, and tell them: "Yea. I like it. That was a great idea. It's much more powerful now."
Click to expand...

I have to say that I think this approach is a bit misguided. Both these suggestions involve talking down to the band and making the judgement that they can't tell the difference. If any of them are on the ball they'll figure out what you are doing and you'll probably lose their trust right then. I for one would pick up on the volume knob trick immediately, and might end the session right there if I was the artist. At the very least I would call the engineer on it immediately, which would be kind of embarassing for all. In any case, it would put me on edge for the rest of the session, and create a bad vibe.

I'm also pretty aware of the "pretend to tweak the knob trick", and I can tell when nothing has changed. I prefer when they over-correct and then you ask them to split the difference until you get it right.

So you might very well have people in the band that are somewhat savvy as to what is really going on in the studio. Playing tricks is probably not going to get you where you want to go.

I know from my experiences scoring films that a few things are very important:

1. Who's in charge?

This is not necessarily the same person who *says* he or she is in charge. This can actually be a little tough to sort out sometimes, especially when there are a lot of people involved. For example, on films you'll have a director and then also producer(s). You can spend a lot of time getting a score so the director is happy, only to find out later that the producer has a totally different idea of how it should go. So you need to sort out where the buck stops.

2. Who's paying for your services?

This is a little easier, and is often a big indicator of who is actually in charge!

3. Follow your gut instincts on everything.

That means regarding the mix too, not just the personnel. I'd say do the mix the way you feel it absolutely sounds the best and then let the chips fall where they may. Rather than start by attempting to please everyone, do what you feel is your best work first, then take their comments and make adjustments from there.

4. Be flexible.

The best response to a suggestion, no matter how seemingly nutty it may be, is to say: "Let's try it". Then sincerely try to make it work. If it doesn't work out, the person making the suggestion might be the first person to realize it sucks. The point is to avoid getting into long discussions about whether to try something or make changes. Just approach changes as "let's try it". I can't tell you how many times I've seen people argue and argue and argue for hours about making a change without actually trying the change! At least make the change first and then argue about it!

Also, sometimes a suggestion may seem really off the wall, but when you try it, for some odd reason it might work. Or if it doesn't work, it may lead down a path to something interesting that does eventually work. You never really know unless you try.

5. Ground rules.

You may want to set up some ground rules to begin with, something to set up your authority. This can be subtle, and about things not related to the mixing project at all. For example, just some guidlines for the use of your facility. This establishes you as the master of your particular domain, and sets you apart slightly in a smooth way.

Managing the band is a confidence game. This is why I think playing tricks like fake mix moves can be devastating to you as the mix engineer. If you lose their confidence you've really lost everything.
 
SonicAlbert said:
I for one would pick up on the volume knob trick immediately, and might end the session right there if I was the artist. At the very least I would call the engineer on it immediately, which would be kind of embarassing for all. In any case, it would put me on edge for the rest of the session, and create a bad vibe.
Click to expand...

I should have prefaced both of my suggestions with the appropriate smiley-face emoticon. :D

I was making an attempt at humor. However, in certain very rare and unusual circumstances, I might actually do something like that. Not as a general rule, but in extreme situations. Most of the bands I work with are extremely cool and down to earth, etc. But every once in a while, you get some really unusual characters, and sometimes you have to use some deductive reasoning and interperatation of the situation.

For example ... Does the guy really want the mix to be "more powerful?" and what does he mean by this, and what does he want me to do about it?

In such a case, it very well could be that he just wants to hear it louder, and doesn't realize that. Maybe his hearing is slightly impaired from years of doing live gigs with no ear plugs ... and he just can't hear it very well. If he says something to the effect of "You just made it louder. I said I wanted it to be more powerful, not just louder," ... then I'll sit down and discuss some things with the guy and really try and get at the root of the problem (In many instances, some extra compression on the kick, and a little reverb and more compression on the drums and bass will help it sound more powerful in their eyes). If you're familiar with their music taste, then a/b'ing with reference material is a logical next step.

In other words: "Give me an example of a mix you consider to be 'powerful," and let's give it some listens and compare notes.

Similarly, if there's a guy who just wants to hear his instrument or voice above all others ... and I can sense that he's got somewhat of an ego, then it could be that he doesn't really want his voice or instrument to dominate. It could just be that he wants to know the engineer is listening to him and "doing something" with his track. In which case, a little placebo effect might be all he's looking for. If you pretend to turn something up, and he says "that's perfect," then you did your job, and he just proved that all he needed was the placebo. If he doesn't respond to your fake tinkering, then you can effectively rule out the placebo as being a factor. You have to guage the situation. If the guy's track is already loud, and the rest of the band collectively rolls their eyes when he requests that you turn him up louder ... then something else might be wrong.

At this juncture it's a good idea to explore the possibility that he may not be thinking or hearing things clearly. Or that he's just a self-centered jerk. These kinds of people do exist. And there's a chance that what he wants might run counter to the goals of the band ... and maybe the rest of the band doesn't say anything about it for the sake of harmony. A lot of it is being aware of the individual personalities and preferences, and separating them from what you think "the group" wants. If you wind up satisfying only one member of the band with the mix, then you'll get only his repeat business. On the other hand, if only one person is dissatisfied with the mix at the expense of the rest of the bands' supreme satisfaction ... then you will have gained maybe 3-5 repeat clients.
 
Bands inherently don't have a clear cut leader, unless they are a veiled back up band for an artist. It is important for the mixer to take the role of leader, even when there is a producer involved. If there is a clear vision, then mixing is easy. The clarity, or lack therof, of this vision come from the tracks. If there is no clear vision, then you must step up and provide that vision. Even if it's ultimately rejected, you at least have a starting point.

Remember, in this case, the mixer is different from the recording engineer. There has been no bonding with the band, and there is no established trust yet. My first goal on the first mix is to establish that trust and a rapport with the band.

After that, it's a piece of cake.

Mixerman
 
Very nice posts in this thread. I'll definitely keep these in mind.

However, I have a question I've been meaning to ask for a very long time, but never got around to it.

I'm still fairly new in the recording studio biz. Currently, I do the tracking as well as mixing. It's a one man setup - I'm the cable guy, the engineer, the janitor. :P

Anyway, I was just wondering how do most people do things here:

Let's say you are done with a tracking session. Do you mix immediatley after tracking? Do you finish the mix on that same day? If you finish mixing all the songs on the same day - are you still charging them as you mix? So if they take 4 hours to track, and you take about 2 hours to mix their songs, does that mean you charge them 6 hours total?

Or what about finish tracking today, and mix later (tomorrow)? How do you charge for that?

Or perhaps after tracking, setup a very rough mix with the band present in the control room, then burn a copy, and when they're gone and everything is quiet, do a proper mix? How would you charge for this method then?

I'm just wondering what is the "right" way to do these. I read somewhere that mixing immediately after a tracking session is not recommended. I actually agree with this myself sometimes; I find my ears way too tired to judge a mix right after tracking.

Looking forward to any wisdom shared here. :)
 
NashBackslash said:
Let's say you are done with a tracking session. Do you mix immediatley after tracking? Do you finish the mix on that same day? If you finish mixing all the songs on the same day - are you still charging them as you mix? So if they take 4 hours to track, and you take about 2 hours to mix their songs, does that mean you charge them 6 hours total?

Or what about finish tracking today, and mix later (tomorrow)? How do you charge for that?
Click to expand...

I avoid at almost all costs mixing right after tracking. For one I'm fried and want to do something else. For two... it never works all that well. You don't really have a proper perspective to focus on the mix and the song. I like to wait as long as I can and hopefully clear the palatte by working on something else in between if I can.

The only thing I don't charge for is setup time- unless its a remote gig. If I'm a) with the client or b) working on the client's material without them there I'm keeping track of billable hours. Since I'm usually working with low budget projects I also let the band know where we are in the hourly scheme of things and give estimates for how long things are likely to take. They need to know that so they can factor it into their decisions. I sometimes chose not to bill all those hours in order to finish something well, but I keep track anyway and negotiate any discounts with the band so they *know* what I'm giving them and why.

NashBackslash said:
Or perhaps after tracking, setup a very rough mix with the band present in the control room, then burn a copy, and when they're gone and everything is quiet, do a proper mix? How would you charge for this method then?
Click to expand...

I also avoid sending home rough mixes. Its part of my policy that the band can't demand them as part of my services unless arranged in advance. I may chose to send home practice tracks for a guitarist to work out solos and such, but its at my discretion, always in compressed formats, and usually a partial mix- no vocals, no effects, etc.

Why? Well, rough mixes sent home before I've been paid are a potential problem. The band could be trying to get a quick mix and run. Not that common, but it happens. I like to remove that possibility up front.

More often, though, a rough mix just sets up weird expectations on the part of the band (or, worse, the band's friends and loved ones). They come to a mixing session with reactions to the rough mix and haven't really gotten the distance from it that they need. They should be thinking about the final vision for the project, the ideal, and not reacting to a hastily done scratch mix.

This is all why I find it refreshing to be working on a project I didn't track. I (and the band) get the benefit of having fresh ears working on the mix.

-Chris
 
Mixerman said:
\My first goal on the first mix is to establish that trust and a rapport with the band. After that, it's a piece of cake.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm hoping to do, as well. So far, so good: what little hob-knobbing I've done with them has worked out really well and I've connected with each member through their own interests, instruments, etc. My co-worker's have also sold them my mixing skills as the best available: true enough, but only because there aren't that many people available to them.

Putting 2 and 2 together: from what I gather so far the best way to establish trust and rapport with the band is to role model that trust and willingness to communicate right from the start. I want this to be a fun and exciting stage of the project for them (mostly because I want to have fun and be excited myself) even though the pressure is mounting for them. Even if they don't have a unified vision (and I don't think they do) they have highly informed insights and goals that we can sort through and forge a vision with. I can easily trust that they have the success of the project and the band as a common goal even if they may not have the skills to communicate about it clearly, yet.

Any suggestions for developing that trust and/or ways to brief a new band and prepare them for the process? My usual track is to be fairly transparent. For example:

"We'll be working on these mixes together. They're your songs and I'm committed to delivering the mix that you want. To that end we'll be trying a lot of different things out and talking about it a lot. You guys know your songs better than anyone and I need your input to make sure I get your mix right. I also know how mixing works- a balancing act, really- and may not always be working in a way that's easy to understand. So let's make a deal: I need you to be open and honest about what you want in the mix and I'll do my best to achieve that for you. At the same time, I need you to have faith that even if you're not quite sure what I'm doing or why... I AM doing it to achieve your mix the best way I know how. If I'm ever not quite sure what you want I'll ask for clarification. I'll do my best to explain what I think is the best way to acheive that mix and if you're ever concerned about what I'm doing, please ask for me clarification. Sound good?"

Take care,
Chris
 
Hi Chris, thanks for the reply.

What do you recommend for a one man studio like myself?

After I finish the tracking session, do I stop the clock, tell them to come tomorrow, and restart the clock?

Or if the band has difficulties coming to my studio again, stop the clock, tell them to go get lunch or something, then restart the clock when they get back?
 
If the band is okay with it, then ultimately, you should see if you can just keep the clock running until their next session.

You could make some serious dough that way.

In fact, try and get them to sign a contract to put you on 24-hour retainer for the year if they'll go for it. It might be difficult, but it's worth a shot.
 
i'm in no way pro experienced in this, but I mix a lot of 14-22 year old bands locally - usally demo stuff.

anyway, if the music sucks anyway, I just do whatever they tell me - hell they are the ones paying me. haha. I'll mix it, they'll come in for an hour and listen through and tell me what to change in every track - and i'll do it after they leave, more or less do what they say completely.

if the music is good, i'll be honest with them. If they say say "turn up the bass." I'll say, "if you take this mix to the car right now, or somewhere with a sub, you'll be outraged if i turn the bass up anymore." ha. stuff like that.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top