Mixing the Bass in contrast to vocals

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yetipur

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Hello,
I am new to mixing, I am wondering if anyone has any tips for mixing bass and Kick in contrast to vocals??
Bass and Kick seems to always be my confusion!
The song I am trying to mix is pretty sparse in actuality but it is coming off in the mix as crowded. Its crowding out the vocals.

Is the bass usually kept in the center?

Generally Should the Bass and Kick be panned together in the same area ?

Is it a good idea to have the bass and kick be down the center with the vocals?
In the case of this song I am mixing, The vocals are melodic.
The bass line is very in line with the kick, it is not a melodic bass line, it is more of a punchy and accented bass line much like a walking bass line and the bass hits every kick. Medium to slow tempo with a 1 2 beat (kick snare kick snare)

Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boombboom tomtomtom
Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boomboom tomtomtom

The song has a walking feeling .
 
yetipur said:
Hello,
I am new to mixing, I am wondering if anyone has any tips for mixing bass and Kick in contrast to vocals??
Bass and Kick seems to always be my confusion!
The song I am trying to mix is pretty sparse in actuality but it is coming off in the mix as crowded. Its crowding out the vocals.

Is the bass usually kept in the center?
Click to expand...

Yes

yetipur said:
Generally Should the Bass and Kick be panned together in the same area ?

Is it a good idea to have the bass and kick be down the center with the vocals?
Click to expand...

Yes.. The common way is down the center... Low frequencies generally lack directional qualities (aka you wouldn't be able to tell what direction they were coming from anyway).. There are exceptions.. Beatles stuff comes to mind..

Lead vocals in the center is also the preferred method... A focal point, if you will..

yetipur said:
In the case of this song I am mixing, The vocals are melodic.
The bass line is very in line with the kick, it is not a melodic bass line, it is more of a punchy and accented bass line much like a walking bass line and the bass hits every kick. Medium to slow tempo with a 1 2 beat (kick snare kick snare)

Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boombboom tomtomtom
Boom snare boomboom snare boomboom snare boomboom tomtomtom

The song has a walking feeling .
Click to expand...

Check this out.. Especially the section on ducking the bass..

http://www.moultonlabs.com/more/principles_of_multitrack_mixing_the_kick_drum_bass_relationship/
 
I have two suggestions... find some commercial CDs with similar instrumentation and compare with your mix (adjust the CD volume for similar loudness to your mix). Also, I'd probably push the bass a tad to the left (less than 11 o'clock) and the vocal a tad to the right (less than 1 o'clock).
 
iqi616 said:
I have two suggestions... find some commercial CDs with similar instrumentation and compare with your mix (adjust the CD volume for similar loudness to your mix). Also, I'd probably push the bass a tad to the left (less than 11 o'clock) and the vocal a tad to the right (less than 1 o'clock).
Click to expand...

I'm curious about your reasoning...

If the bass gets moved to the left, it seems to me that the situation wouldn't improve. The attack of the bass would come before the kick attack and the kick attack would be still be competing with the rest of the bass note's envelope (which is pretty horizontal)....

It would seem move logical to more the bass a little to the right, effectively giving the kick attack more "room", since it would then be competing with the end of the bass note's envelope....
 
Yetipur...

I usually set my kick, bass and main vocals in the center. It sounds like this might be more of an EQ situation rather than panning. There's alot of different thoughts on this but generally, make sure the kick and bass aren't taking up the same sonic space. Look at the EQ curves on both instruments and start tweaking em. Try some low cuts and see how they sound to you. I would also suggest subtractive EQ first. Boosting EQ may be just the ticket but try subtracting first.

Trust your ears, Grasshopper. :)

Good luck.
 
Eq and panning could work, but why not just turn down the bass?
 
i have heard mixes where the bass is split and hard panned left and right. It works in a lot of types of music and gives the mix a good full sound. It also frees up space in the middle for your vocals.

Are there any battling frequencies between your kick and bass or some unneeded lows coming from your vocal track? That seems to be the main solution to the problems. Make sure you dip your frequencies on your bass EQ where you've boosted frequencies on your kick....It's like a giant jigsaw puzzle of frequency control. Make sure everything has a nice slot of its own to sit in.

I dont know, just trying to throw out some suggestions.
 
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you can pan anything anywhere, but your mix has to sound good in mono first. a weird thought- often when I think I need eq actually I need compression, and when I think I need compression I really need eq.
 
baker_ said:
i have heard mixes where the bass is split and hard panned left and right. It works in a lot of types of music and gives the mix a good full sound. It also frees up space in the middle for your vocals.
Click to expand...

If the same signal is split and panned hard left and right, it is exactly the same as putting it right down the middle.
 
AGCurry is dead on right about copying a track and panning the same signal L and R. All you're doing is changing the volume of the track. you aren't thickening anything.

i went through a phase where i would pan the kick and bass slightly L/R of center opposite one another in the mix to try to carve out a little more space in the mix for the lead vocal (panned dead center); however, the deeper the bass groove, the less effective the panning becomes and the kick was never distiguishable from a panning perspective, so i've since scrapped the idea.
 
I'm very surprised that no one else seems to be a proponent of ducking the bass... It's almost magical to my ears.. I've stuggled with the problem deonoted by the thread's tittle for years and ducking the bass is the most efficient and least harmful (to the original tone delivery that I have came across...

:confused:
 
peritus said:
I'm very surprised that no one else seems to be a proponent of ducking the bass... It's almost magical to my ears.. I've stuggled with the problem deonoted by the thread's tittle for years and ducking the bass is the most efficient and least harmful (to the original tone delivery that I have came across...

:confused:
Click to expand...

YES! I totally agree!

I use to put a high and lowpass filter at the bass, cutting alot actually low end and highend. Maybe carve alot around 160 and boost a little around 80. Alone it sounds crap.

Together with the kick, boosted around 80 as well, both panned careful to the other side than the vocals, I start ducking the bass. (Try to set the release time in tempo, maybe 8th) I use to be careful, not ducked as an effect but to cut 4-6 dB to start with.

If you need more kick in the mix boost the attack (eq) around 2k until it stands out more - try not to increase the trackvolume if you got the body of the kick right. If you need more bottom in the basstrack move the highpass filter around and/or use a multicompressor to boost the lowend up (from 100 and down).

To get more out of the vocals give it a short reverb with alot of body, but keep the other reverb (if there is any). It sometimes helps the vocals sit better with the mix. Also use compressors. I don´t know what you got, but play around with two of them together working different and sounding different the combination could really be something extra. Or just crap :D Have fun!

/s
 
i like to go pan crazy..

kick is always dead center. i usually make guitar go a bit one way, and bass about the equal distance the other.

mmm the fine art of a stereo image! the hassles it can cause and also avoid...
 
eek. I am sorry
What I meant to say about panning the bass is this.

Sometimes i set up a stereo bass track. I hard pan the orginal Left, and use a short delay on the bass panned hard Right. This WILL open up a hole for your vocals. The only problem with this is that you'll have to fight to get this to sound good in mono. :( I completey agree with FALKEN in saying that the mix has to sound good in mono first..
 
baker_ said:
eek. I am sorry
What I meant to say about panning the bass is this.

Sometimes i set up a stereo bass track. I hard pan the orginal Left, and use a short delay on the bass panned hard Right. This WILL open up a hole for your vocals.
Click to expand...

It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.
 
chessrock said:
It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.
Click to expand...


I'm just simply throwing out suggestions. I have found that this does help, but by no means was it my idea to try this. I'm open to trying new and different techniques, and this is one that i found that sounded interesting. I can't quite remember where it came from, I want to say it was one of those cheap books I was rummaging through at Border's one boring night. I think it was one of those Bill Gibson books because i remember a pretty little diagram and references to included audio tracks...

anyway. it was something i thought was interesting and tried. it worked. it jsut sounded awful in mono so i scrapped it. if someone could get it to work though, then maybe it's worth trying. i was simply passing along an idea for the pure sake of suggestion. i did not mean to harm anyone's conventional way of thinking in doing so... i guess for that, i apologize.

But really, ducking the bass works the best. it IS the least harmful method, and the most effective
 
I concur with FALKEN - set it up in mono.
Look at the EQ curve of bass & kick. Where they cross over cut from that EQ zone incrementally from one, but not both, playing as you go to see what result you get.
I'd say cut the bass. (& I'm a bassist!!)
IF you've done your subtractive EQ'ing nicely you may then wish to give the bass guitar a littleboost around 3kHz so that where it misses out in bottom it makes up in definition.
When the mud has cleared start panning minimally - but for traditions sake try to hold bass, bass drum & Vox at centre if they'll fit.
 
chessrock said:
It really doesn't.

People really need to stop it with all of that crap.

It isn't healthy.
Click to expand...

Chessrock I read this quote a few times and started thinking it over. I decided that maybe panning the bass "ghost" a little might just open up the center for the vocals.

Then i thought --->

Wait, if panning a guitar this way helps to thicken the guitar sound, then wouldn't panning a bass this way thicken the bass sound? and if so, how does that open anything up for the vocals? it wouldn't.

so I think this might be a cool way to thicken your bass sound, but I also think that if your core bass sound needs thickening maybe you need to re-record.
 
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