Mixing Nightmare

  • Thread starter Thread starter baker_
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For me , if a band wants to hire me, then I advise them the situation isnt correct for a proper recording yet they insist, the money is mine. I dont feel I owe them anything in return dollar wise. Its like talking someone out of a certian shirt if you worked in a clothing store. If they know the score up front, thats all you can do. I have had kind of similar situations in my live recordings. Guitar amps right behind drums bleeding, small crampped clubs, band way too loud. I let the band/artisr know the problems, if they still want to proceed,ok.
Oh, and Lee R. had an excellent point, give them a card and let them know you do a much better job in future if situation was different.
 
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Robert D said:
Glen - I understand and admire your professional ethics. To you, you have done nothing unless you produce a professional product. Therefore, you wouldn't take a job where that was unlikely to be achieved. That's fine, but some people like hamburgers, and if every cook in town insisted they are above cooking hamburger, I wouldn't have enjoyed the blue cheese burger I just had tonight. ;)
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MMMmmmmm...Blue cheese burger :P~~~~~ :D. Hope you had the grilled onions on there too ;).

While the reputation angle is an important part of it, that not really where I'm coming from on this one. Now that we all know that the client could be pushed over with a feather, there's a lot of eagle-eyed hindsight. But look at the situation just on it's original merits without the benefit of time travel into the future. Let's review:

We had a bunch of amateur musicians with little to no experience in recording that wanted a recording of themselves and were paying juicy money for it. One that's been on this forum for a while can almost see the train wreck coming down the tracks: "We paid a lot of money for this recording. How come it doesn't sound anything like the Metallica CDs I play all the time?"

Then when you compound that with the situation of making the recording in a rental storage unit which is all cinder block and corregated steel with maybe a couple of the bands old blankets thrown up as "acoustic treatment", and you can already hear the train leaving the rails.

The client type combined with the reportedly high pay rate are a classic setup for high client expectations. Throw those expectations into a horrendous physical recording situation manned by a self-admitted rookie engineer, and you have a classic recipe for disaster.

As far as I'm concerned, that is a job I would have never taken as being no-win, and baker just happened to dodge a big fat bullet when it turned out his clients had tin ears and no business sense.

And even if I managed to set expectations with the client, do I really want to get a rep as a guy that "costs a lot of money to provide a marginal product"? I'd much rather advise the client to try another recording location other than a glorified oil drum.

G.

EDIT: Rob D. - thanks for the inspiration, BTW!. I just came back from the grocery store loaded with supplies. It's going to be charburgers with lettuce, bacon, blue cheese and grilled onion (with a side of BBQ beans) for the game today! :P~~~
 
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Robert D said:
I don't get some of you on this. There was full disclosure, the client wanted to proceed anyway, the AE seems reasonably happy, the client is happy......... what's the problem?
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Agreed. Baker advised them of the problems with their recording space in advance, under promised on what the results would be, and obviously still managed to make a recording the client is happy with. I don't see any reason why he should give them their money back or re-record anything. If he had not advised them of the problems in advance or made a recording they were unhappy with, then that would be a different story. But that's not what happened.

In the future one hopes the band would be willing to consider his opinion on recording in a better space. And now that he seems to be gaining the trust of the band, it may be easier for Baker to indeed steer them toward a better sounding room.

In my opinion, some of the best jobs to take are the no-win jobs where you are set up for failure. In some circumstances, anyway.

I recently was hired as a sub keyboardist on a national tour that was coming through town. Normally the keyboard 2 player would have played the keys 1 book on some nights, but took a look at the book and refused due to the difficulty level and how much time it would take to learn. Another keyboardist had also refused to play the keys 1 book when the show came through town earlier in the year. Yet another had even quit the job over it. The book is virtually impossible to sub on, and is a real setup for very public failure, which everyone knew.

I worked my butt off on that book, even setting up a mock keyboard rig in my home to simulate the conditions I would face in the orchestra pit. Fortunately I nailed it, and a month later I was called to play keys on the next national tour coming through that theater as the regular, not the sub.

So in "no win" situations you can sometimes turn it around and come out ahead, as Baker seems to have done. The band knew the space wasn't good, yet Baker made a recording they were happy with. This says good things about his abilities, and they might give his opinion more consideration next time around. If their checks don't bounce, then it's a win-win for everyone.

It's all an ongoing process. You do indeed have to determine whether their is any chance of success, as some situations can indeed be truly no-win because too many circumstances are stacked against one.
 
I have a question. I did not see it mentioned unless I missed it . How much did the band pay and for how many hours? What kind of scale we talking? I think that fact is very important. If they paid near the scale of a pro studio and had poor results then maybe some type of refund, re tracking is due if they are not happy. If they 1/4 to 1/2 pro studio scale and got "kind of close" to pro studio level and they are happy, I dont see a problem.
Jim
 
SonicAlbert said:
If he had not advised them of the problems in advance or made a recording they were unhappy with, then that would be a different story. But that's not what happened.
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You guys are lucky to have the 20/20 hindsight to work with ;). When I made my OP, there was no indication that the client was happy or reason to believe that they would be happy; there was only a discription of the situation and the fact that baker had a real "problem recording" on his hands.

The fact that the client was indeed happy is a bullet dodged, IMHO. It's easy *after* finding out that the client was happy with the problem recording to ask, "What's the harm?" Before knowing that outcome, I'd argue that the potential for harm was very high.

You guys sound like NASA Shuttle managers saying that because baker's O-rings did not fail this time, it's safe to go out and launch under those conditions the next time ;) :D. I, for one, am not willing to gamble that such bullet dodging can go on for very long before one gets hit.

If you have a problem situation that will almost certainly lead to a problem recording and the client is paying big for the job, you'd damn well better make sure that expectations are set very low, because otherwise the result of a happy client is going to be rare.

Just one opinion. :)

G.
 
without reading all of the super-long posts in this topic...

i've noticed that inexperienced kids who try to do shit like make a live recording in a cement box have no idea what a record is even supposed to sound like, and really don't care about the quality of the mix in the end...they just want to be able to hear their own shit and tell their friends about it

as long as they stay and ignorant and happy, and your name doesn't get associated with the shitty quality, then all is good
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
You guys sound like NASA Shuttle managers saying that because baker's O-rings did not fail this time, it's safe to go out and launch under those conditions the next time ;) :D. I, for one, am not willing to gamble that such bullet dodging can go on for very long before one gets hit.
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No, it's more like you advise NASA the O-rings are a problem, that they are not safe and you can't predict the results with certainty, and they decide to launch anyway. Once you've advised them, it really is up to the client to make the right choices. If they don't, you do everything you can to make it succeed or you leave the project.

Baker now hopefully has gained more trust from the band, and has started to develop a relationship with them. In the future he might be able to recommend a better recording room and they might be more willing to listen. Or not. But at least he did the project, got paid, and they are happy with it.

Every job can't be class "A". There are times when you fill out your schedule with what you can. Everyone I know who makes a living from music does this, whether they are a musician or engineer. Unless they are *really* successful and can pick and choose.

It is also impossible to predict which jobs will lead to more jobs. I've done small jobs for low bread that led to a lot of work--you just don't know what the future brings. So if you've got the free time in your calendar it's almost always better to do the work, in my opinion.
 
Last night was our little listening session. Yes, they were happy with the "mixes" . I was not as pleased. I took the major suggestion on this thread to heart: don't have your name associated with the product. I did follow through with that, and they saw exactly where I was coming from. We all knew we wouldn't be getting a great sounding disc here. I was working with a somewhat inexperienced band in an awful reverberating death chamber, and I'm still an amateur myself.

Jim - you inquired about the pay. It's been sounding like it was a giant sum I received, but it has been overexaggerated throughout this discussion. It was a lot for what I usually charge. Since I took my equipment to them, I charged $200 for transportation. They offered $40 an hour and I accepted this. As you can see, not near pro recording rates, but still substantial for me and my usual line of work.

I am definitely an amateur here, and I am looking foward to learning a lot from the great people on these boards. Thank you all again for your help. :)
 
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SonicAlbert said:
. If they don't, you do everything you can to make it succeed or you leave the project.
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And I recommended leaving the project. That's all.

If the client is setting themself up for failure - or at least disappointment - there's nothing to be done about that.

If someone calls me and says, "Glen, we want to pay you good money to make a lousy recording, or just something for fun," I'll say sure. I'll take the job. That's easy money and everybody is happy. The expectations are properly set.

If that same person calls me and says, "Glen, we want to pay you good money to make a demo disc from inside a tin can," my reply would be, "You'll be wasting your money, becasue there's no good way to make a demo-quality recording from inside a tin can. Let's work together to figure out some other location where we can do this so we can get it done right and you're not just throwing your money and your opportunities away." I'll try to properly set expectations.

If that doesn't sound reasonable to them, if they insist that they can get demo quality out of a tin can - if they have unreasonable expectations - then I'll say, "Thats your perrogative, but you'll have to find another magician that can do that for you. I can't in good conscience take your money for a job that'll wind up hurting you in the long run."

And then I'll sit back and wait for that time down the road when they or a friend of theirs need a second engineering job done and they call me back with more trust and respect than ever because their first tin can job just did not work out for them the way they thought it would.

In the meantime, working for expectations that you know you can't meet is a fool's career.

G.
 
Baker, I would love to hear some samples of the "environment from hell mixes" if possible. $40.00 per hour is pretty good money, how far did you have to travel? I charge $600.00 for an entire night of live recording. That's a 4 hour gig which includes setup ,teardown and 14 songs mixed. If the band wants more than 14 then its studio rate of $25.00 per hour.All within 20 miles of my town. I have recorded bands in some pretty nasty clubs so I feel your pain. Also, to your credit it sure seems that you are honest and want the client to have a good product. That itself will I think bring you more business I think. I think my on locations are good, maybe not great but as everyone, I'm learning. I dont think you should feel bab about how the final CD turns out. If they are happy so be it, and you will have learned something from it...no harm, no foul. :)
 
I wouldn't mention anything at all about your feelings on the mix.

first let them hear what you've done at least for one tune and see what they think. if they like it then there's no need to give them any money back. they agreed to make the record with you in those conditions and therefore there's nothing you can really do. you accepted the job given the conditions they allowed you.

its ultimately their record and if they like what they hear for one tune then they got their money's worth.

Every mixing enginner is soo critial about their own work but as it was mentioned before, its ultimately their call. If they like it, i'd suggest you make them sign some sort of waiver form when they take the final mix saying that they are completely happy with the record and that any additional work done to those recordings in the future will be done for a set fee. this way, if they walk out and realize 3 months down the road they don't like it, they either won't come back or you can make some more money off of it. hell, you could even suggest re recording things and let them know what went wrong in the first place.

I just find that in general if you tell someone that you think THEIR product sucks, they'll get very self conscience of it and believe you whereas if you didnt say anything in the first place, you leave the decision up to them.
 
ahh but it's a tad different that that. I discussed with them that their material is great. Unfortunately that couldnt translate incredibly well to their recordings (i am going to refrain from calling them mixes anymore...lol) That is what i discussed with them. I helped them realize that they could do a lot more if we had tracked these songs instead. They agreed but it goes back to their want of a quick production. They needed this done before Feb 22 for a small tour they are doing on the East Coast with some old friends...something like that. I told them we could have done it in that time frame, but they insisted to do it this way.

as for the pay again. yea, it was twice what i charge per hour so i was happy to accept. before they offered, they knew exactly what kind of sounds they were getting into. they knew it wasnt ideal.

we did record for only 3 hours.
 
I just think that the choices in Baker's case were not quite as black and white as "do it the way I'm recommending or get someone else". I personally think he was right to take that job, and that the band very well might come back to him and want to re-record the tracks better next time.

However, I do agree that there is a risk being associated with a recording that was done in a bad room and that has obvious problems. Not so much what the public will think, but more that you can get lumped into a category of being an engineer that does that level of work. As far as his name being associated, he can just have a fake name credited on the album if he's really worried about that. I use a made-up name every once in a while (and no, I won't tell you what it is!).

I've found that jobs tend to lead to more jobs of the same kind, but you *need* to do the starter level jobs to learn and gain experience and as a stepping stone to better work. But then you also eventually need to stop doing those beginner jobs in order to move up.

I have friends who have killed their careers by being *overly* selective about the work they will take. One talented guy I know is always complaining that he never gets any work, but when I send him work (good gigs) he turns them down for one reason or another. They don't meet his standards for money, or the people he'd be working with, etc.

So he basically doesn't have any stepping stones to move on to the next thing and sits home a lot. In the case of Baker, no matter what room the band recorded in he now has more recording experience, has dealt with a band on a musical/personal/professional level, and has learned from the experience on all levels. In my opinion, where he is in his recording career this is far better for him than turning the gig down because the room sucks. He can do that the *next* time that band wants to record in a terrible room.
 
SonicAlbert said:
I use a made-up name every once in a while (and no, I won't tell you what it is!).
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I know everyone has different reasons...
Just curious: why do you use a "made-up ", fake name once in a while, Albert?
Many musicians I know did/yet do the same.
(some for "contract" reasons, another for "my real name can´t appear on this kind of job" reasons"...)


Tks

Ciro
 
I will never cease to be amazed at the information filter that's built into some mediums of comunication such as Internet text forums and how the level of misunderstanding often exceeds the level of actual information exchange. I really don't think it's the fault of the participants so much as it's a built-in limitation of the medium. This thread is a perfect example.

Al, *I don't disagree with any point you have made.* As usual, you are giving good advice here.

That's NOT the point I have been trying to make, however. It's not so much about reputation (at least not in the way that's being intimated nere), or experience, or resume pluses or minuses, or even choosing between work and twiddling one's thumbs.

My point was it's unwise to set up a job for failure in the *business transaction* sense, not so much in an engineering sense. It's all about client expectations versus the experience of reality. If the band is expecting or will be happy with a product that sounds like it's recorded in a tin can, fine. No problem. I get that.

It's when the band is expecting to get more than that for their money (and the more they pay, the more they usually expect), and is setting up a situation where the kind of quality they expect cannot be delivered, *that's* when you should try to steer them into better circumstances. And if that option is not an option, then you should decline the job. Because if you don't, more times than not, all that results from that job is either a refund, meaning wasted time on everybody's part, or an unhappy customer, or both.

Spending hours on a job where one is likely to wind up with an unhappy customer is not good for anybody, rookie or veteran. And if you don't get paid for it because of having to refund part or all of your fee, well, that's just rubbing rock salt into the wound.

And one more time, my original reply was based upon the information that there was a "problem recording" and an implication that the product wasn't good enough. The fact that, upon a combo of further information and hindsight that was not originally supplied, it turned out that everybody turned out happy with the transaction was nothing more than a dodged bullet. It's not so much a happy ending as a lucky one.

I'm NOT advocating that one be picky about the work they take, just that they be smart about not setting themselves up for a greater chance of failure than success. Set the expectations properly; if the expections and the probable reality do not meet, then it's, at best, a risky job to take, business-wise.

G.
 
Right, your first post was based on incomplete information. As it turned out, all parties were on the same page and had no unrealistic expectations. I agree about advising the client about the realities, almost nothing is important as that in managing the people and situations we run across in our work.

I understood what you were saying, but was simply choosing to amplify one aspect of the discussion.

It seems like Baker handled himself extremely well. He must be fairly young, but I think he really managed the situation great.
 
SonicAlbert said:
It seems like Baker handled himself extremely well. He must be fairly young, but I think he really managed the situation great.
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Agreed. And the fact that he can hear the inadequacies in the production where others can't bodes well for his ears and his future behind the glass :).

G.
 
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