Mixing mediocre sounding drums

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JG96

JG96

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My drummer is really good but on recordings he never sounds great. He does not have a very expensive set but he has upgraded it a lot. He has a Tama swingstar drumset with sabain cymbals. He has upgraded the snares on his snare drum and replaced all the drum heads with evans. He has also stuffed the bass drum with acoustic dampening material. What should we do to make his set sound better in the studio?
 
Bob Gatzen's tuning videos are great. Watch them, learn them, tune them.
 
sounds good, my drummer has his drums tuned but i will send him the videos some time soon. Does anyone have any other tricks? We are going to record with 2 shure sm81's using the recorder-man technique. We might just apply some distortion.
 
distortion isn't going to make the kit sound better it will make it sound worse. Only way to make them sound good is good heads and tuning then good mic placement. The recorderman will give you great results.
 
If the drums truly sound good - really? really? - but they're recording bad, then the obvious conclusion is the way they're recorded has issues. If you have other mics to try, try them. Maybe the SM81s just don't like those drums.

And personally I look at specific "methods" as just physical versions of presets. Feel free to get off of "the recorderman method" and move those mics. Not that there's anything intrinsically wrong wit the method, just that there's no guarantee that any one method will work best for any one situation.

Thinking that because one is using some specific "recording method" and it doesn't work, must mean that the fault lies elsewhere, is putting things backwards. If the method doesn't work, try another method. Which one? There's only one way to find out, and that's to try different mic placements until you find what works.

But frankly, it shouldn't be rocket surgery to figure out. If you just can't get them to sound "right", then one of two things is happening: either the drums just don't sound as great as you think they do, or your ears are being unrealistic about the sound they expect from the recording.

G.
 
Two words: parallel compression. I always felt like my drum tracks were sorely lacking until I discovered this technique.
 
The physical drums dont sound great but the drumming is. I have other mics but the sm81's are the only matched pair i have. last time we used a more standard overhead technique but the snare mic and bass drum mic didn't add much. I feel like the main problem is that the set sounds weak. The heads have been upgraded. I intend to show the drummer the tuning vids, what else can be done to improve the actual drum set?
 
Are you micing the kick and snare or just using overheads?

Well last time we recored we miced the snare and bass drum but it really didnt make the drums sound any better so this time we are just going to use overheads.
 
From what I've seen, the two most common causes of "drums sound bad" complaints are mic placement and drum tuning. (With inconsistent playing being a close third)

Have you tried moving the mics around with your drummer playing while monitoring with headphones? You'd be amazed the amount of difference a slight movement in the mic will make in the sound.

Most importantly, tune the drums. That can't be overemphasized. Just because drums aren't a tonal instrument like a guitar doesn't mean that out of tune ones aren't as detrimental to the overall sound of a song as an out of tune guitar. If the drums don't sound good to begin with, expecting them to sound better after they're recorded is like sticking a Ferrari sticker on a Fiero and expecting to win races...
 
seems like tuning is really important, i think my drummer knows how to tune well but i have sent him the vids and im hoping he can make them sound better. I remember i was at a music store with him once and the set was very well tuned and it sounded incredibly powerful.
 
If the drums sound good, you shouldn't need any "tricks" to get them to record well. If you say that adding a kik and snare mic didn't make the recording sound better, then you're doing something horribly wrong.

You did say that the drums don't sound great. Well then, don't expect them to record very well, either. No "trick" is going to help you there.

If he has Evans skins and good cymbals, then he needs to learn how to tune his drums., because new Evans skins on any kit should sound just fine.
 
My drummer is really good but on recordings he never sounds great. He does not have a very expensive set but he has upgraded it a lot. He has a Tama swingstar drumset with sabain cymbals. He has upgraded the snares on his snare drum and replaced all the drum heads with evans. He has also stuffed the bass drum with acoustic dampening material. What should we do to make his set sound better in the studio?

Oh man. There are many reasons why a drummer might not sound good in the studio, and some of the reasons might have little to do with him.

EVERYTHING is in play here. I mean, if you put Matt Chamberlain in a tiny carpeted room, his drums are going to sound like shit, and he's one of the top drummers in the world. The space around the drums is just as critical as the drums themselves.

Then there's mic choice and placement. On "band" drummers in a great room, I sometimes spend most of the first day on the drums, whereas with Matt Chamberlain, JR, Keltner, or any other great drummer, I have tones in ten minutes flat. That's because band drummers tend to have less balance control over the kit. Overheads and hats are often hit far too aggressively, which causes problems for the recordist in trying to capture the kit, mostly because it starts out poorly balanced.

Mic choices and their placement will make a huge difference in the capture of the kit. U87s over the kit are completely different from C12s which are completely different form 451s. I'll use small condensers as overheads if I want to capture the aggregate of the kit from that position. I'll use large diaphragms as overheads if I'm looking to capture mostly cymbal information, and then I'll use the room mics to capture the aggregate of the kit. So, if you don't have an attentive recordist in the room with you, that could be your problem

Drum tuning will make a huge difference in recording a kit. An out of tune kit is going to sound like shit. Period. Great drummers know how to tune their drums, and when I get a drummer in the room that isn't particularly good at this I hire someone to do it.

Then, of course, there's mic pres and converters which also make a difference.

If you feel your drummer is kick ass, and he has good balance, then it's either a room issue or a recordist issue (and since the recordist selects the mics, we're going to lay blame on him for not using due diligence).

Mic placement is also critical. Drum kits can have 10 mics all within feet of each other. If those mics aren't placed well, there will be phase coherency issues that will totally fuck up the drum sound.

The heads that the drummer uses on his kit can also make a difference. White coated Ambassadors sound completely different from gel heads, and if your music calls for one and you're using the other, you might be having issues with the drum tones.

Stuffing the kik drum with deadening material isn't unusual, but if the kik drum sounds too dead, then you might want to adjust how much you put in. Further, a kik drum mic inside the kik is exceptionally unnatural sounding, and often sounds like a basketball. I often mic the kik drum from outside the shell, but if the drummer is exceptionally aggressive on the snare and/or cymbals, this can cause me to stick the damn thing inside the drum again, or build a tunnel over the mic so as to reduce the bleed from the rest of the drums. You might also wire up a woofer so that it terminates with a male XLR, and use that on the kik drum in conjunction with a mic in the shell. Be forewarned though: Be careful about how much of the speaker mic you buss with the other kik mic, or you risk blowing out your monitors.

Last but not least, compressors are a necessary part of a recordists tool kit (and a mixers) for dealing with a player lacking dynamic control and balance of his overall kit. The more problematic the drummer, the harder I'm going to hit compressors in order to make those drums sing. This can also be done in the mixing process, although I far prefer to get those drums sounding great right from the git, as it keeps clients (and me) from getting nervous.

Since you're at the mixing stage on this project, the best advice I can give you is to get a good mixer that understands how to use compressors (particularly hardware ones). You can also pick up my book Zen and the Art of Mixing if you're attempting to mix this yourself, as it provides quite a bit of useful information in this regard.

Hope that helps.

Enjoy,

Mixerman
 
First off i would like to thank Mixerman for such a great response. He tuned his kit yesterday so hopefully it will be sounding better. I think the next thing is going to be adding dampening gels. We are probably going to record again in like 2 weeks so I will report back. There is already some deadening material in the kick drum. It doesn't sound too dead but it sounds a bit boomy. well see what we can do to make the kit sound better. Now that everything is tuned up the set should sound better.
 
From what I've seen, the two most common causes of "drums sound bad" complaints are mic placement and drum tuning. (With inconsistent playing being a close third)
I my experience the order of the three biggest culprits is:

Drummer can't play
Bad tuning
Bad mic placement

But regardless of order I think we can all agree that these are the top 3.
Remember, playing drums is so much more than striking the right surfaces at the right time. Strike a single drum head in different places at different velocities and really wrap your head around how many different sounds one drum can give you even with the tuning locked in. Ditto for cymbals. If the drummer strikes the right areas of the kit at the correct velocity at the correct time, it is damn near impossible to screw up the recording.

Have you tried moving the mics around with your drummer playing while monitoring with headphones? You'd be amazed the amount of difference a slight movement in the mic will make in the sound.
In an ideal situation you are in a different room listening on monitors while an assistant moves the mics and you listen...but I'm willing to bet none of us have that. Yes, the headphone thing is quite helpful. Just be sure to have all of the mics on at all times. It is useless to dial in the sound of one mic without hearing how the others contribute.

Most importantly, tune the drums.
I don't even hold this in the spot of supreme importance, and I still take 5 hours to tune 'em. Even if the player is more important, tuning is indeed damn important as well.
 
Thinking that because one is using some specific "recording method" and it doesn't work, must mean that the fault lies elsewhere, is putting things backwards. If the method doesn't work, try another method.
Agreed.

To add to that: Before moving on to another method, check that the drums actually are good. This takes 5 minutes and really helps. Put a single mic in the room 10 feet away from the kit. Drum and record. Listen to that one mic. Does it sound good, mixed, and EQed properly with the correct amount of punch in that single mic? If it does, great. Pick your recording method and move on to the actual recording. If it doesn't, you need to work on tuning and performance first.
 
my drummer really took the time to tune his set nicely a few days ago, it sounds so much better now. The snare was really the weakest link in the set but now that its tuned properly it sounds really nice. I highly doubt we will have trouble recording.
 
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