Mixing like a pro

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And I said...With a ? You do not hear large mixes....That are NOT JUST side to side and front to back..

Key word Just.. I'm sure you hear side to side and front and back...But I said earlier I'm thinking up and down as well....

I also said if you think about sitting at home plate..You can place players all over the field...But there are some mixes I feel like i'm not only seeing the players on the field but I'm seeing the fans UP in the seats..and maybe a solo or horn fly by like a ball heading to outfield..

It was mentioned earlier that you hear that stuff in Movies now...Which is true...

My point originally was that I (meaning me) think this way...If you are standing in a room...Do you mean to tell me you can't hear above your head and below.... You never heard someone say....Man that bass feels deep? Why to you think we call highs -Highs? Or Top end? People think top to bottom allot...Just never talk about it..I was pointing out when asked about 3D mixing..You can't try and get 3D if your only thinking 2D... Get it?

I said in the last post...Maybe I'm (meaning me again) crazy.
 
Ok, I could understand the up/down thing if I had a speaker on the floor and one overhead......and a up/down pan control. I just don't see it happening without 4 speakers, 2 for left/right and 2 for up/down. I would like to hear a piece of music thru either stereo speakers or headphones in which things can be heard up/down in the mix. Any suggestions to check out? I'm not trying to be a sarcastic smartass. I really would like to hear up/down. :D

BTW, you said "really large", not "up/down".
 
you know, EVERY friggin !@#$$ time someone mentions treble appearing higher in space than bass my mixing world falls apart

I hear it that way always

but when someone SAYS it, I think about it, then it stops working then I get all messed up and everything becomes a muddy mess as I mix it
 
TravisinFlorida said:
Ok, I could understand the up/down thing if I had a speaker on the floor and one overhead......and a up/down pan control. I just don't see it happening without 4 speakers
As I mentioned, I've also heard this on headphones. Certainly I can't put the headphones so that one can is on top of my head and another under my chin? A couple of weeks ago I watched 28 Days Later wearing headphones (it was 3am and I wanted to listen to the whole thing w/o waking up people). There was some serious up/down movement in it.

There is certainly some psychoacoustic play going on there, that causes the brain to think that a sound is coming from up, down when there aren't speakers there. Just the same way that the brain thinks that a sound that's panned center and is left pretty dry comes straight out of the computer monitor... obviously it doesn't, but the brain picks it up as such. The same way the brain thinks that the sound is coming from further away, or closer forward... You don't have speakers arrayed 1 meter, then another set 5 meter, then another set 10 meters away from you right? But you can play with reverb, EQ and volume to push sounds back.

Some time ago I was experimenting with "panning" so that it appeared that the sound went from left to behind my head to right. What I did was used the same source panned hard left and hard right. Put an Allpass filter on one channel, (for those that don't know an Allpass filter progressivly phase-shifts the higher frequency components of a sound), and followed them by 2 pole low pass filters. Set so that the same controller would modulate the filters in opposite direction, while maintaining the same exact frequency range of the sweep. This caused the sound to appear to pan left and right, and when the low-pass filter's cutoff was at the same frequency on both, they appeared to come from behind my head.

The catch was, this only worked on the headphones. When listening to it on the speakers, the overall sound just appeared to be washed up and unfocused. You could forget about mono compatibility altogether as well.
 
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Is there a up down pan knob somewhere? :D

I gotta get me one of those... :p
 
bigwillz24 said:
Is there a up down pan knob somewhere? :D

I gotta get me one of those... :p

I'm gonna patent that idea so don't get any funny ideas. :D
 
pipelineaudio said:
you know, EVERY friggin !@#$$ time someone mentions treble appearing higher in space than bass my mixing world falls apart

I hear it that way always

but when someone SAYS it, I think about it, then it stops working then I get all messed up and everything becomes a muddy mess as I mix it

:(

I've been trying to figure that one out for twenty years.
 
Wait I started this stupid thing....were's my $$$$$$

Up down knob would be cool....

TravisinFlorida, Don't forget you'd also need a speaker in front and behind...Would that be mono surround? Weird....

Again it's how I think...How I go about my mixes...Not saying do steps 1,2,3 and that's it. I'm saying I work towards it because I hear it...

Sort of like when I show a nubee client essss in a vocal...After that their favorite Cd's drive them nuts..

Maybe there isn't an up and down....but I sure hear something...I do have a Funk Logic piece in my rack that gets me very close...
 
I don't know if anyone mentioned using a 10-40ms delay to EQ your instruments, but that's a start ;).
 
Delay is something I need to learn to use. Thanks for that tip.
 
punkin said:
YUP!...never appreciated this until we had the place set up for recording. The room used to suck so close micing was the best we could do...all the mixes seemed to sound flat. Now that the rooms are in working order, we can get further away and get real ambiance in the recordings. Big difference!


How relelvant is this really? If you look at pictures of the Beatles in the studio you see those U47s right in front of the amps and gear. Those same pictures show them singing within inches of the mics. Those mixes sound excellant. As close as those mics were, I don't think much room ambience got in.

Bob
 
youll find that even for SUPER close micing, a good room still makes a HUGE difference!

The size of the room can still be heard pretty clearly on a close mic'ed snare for instance
 
Bob's Mods said:
How relelvant is this really? If you look at pictures of the Beatles in the studio you see those U47s right in front of the amps and gear. Those same pictures show them singing within inches of the mics. Those mixes sound excellant. As close as those mics were, I don't think much room ambience got in.

Bob


A) It's a U47
B) The room will always make the difference. In fact, in extreme cases when you can't hear the difference, you can feel the difference.

I'll bet my life that if that album was recorded anywhere else, it would of sounded completely different.

So it's extremely relevant.


But for all:

To generalize this topic and to hopefully nudge some souls in the right direction: (after Im done with this, it'll probably do me good to stay away from the internet for a while).

One thing that's extremely over looked is how to truly achieve the 3 dimensions in recording. Most people are half there. But before I can elaborate on that, some very basic concepts.

1) When you record something, it is inherently 2 dimensional in nature the moment it's captured on it's medium. (Analog tape, Harddrive, whatever). In the same way you draw something on paper, it will be flat and undefined in space.

So the question you should ask yourself before you even touch the faders is:

"So how do I get it to 3D?"

Good question...

2) In mixing, an engineer has to be familiar with the terms "Height, Width and Depth". This is how you will place your instruments effectively in thier space. Professionally called the sound stage.

Height is achieved through EQ. Higher frequencies tend to feel higher on the plane than lower freqs. I beleive that was already answered.

Width is a tricky one. Because there are many things that can effect how wide something actually is or might feel like. For example "The width of analog" is an expression that discribes the properties of 2inch analog tape.

Stereo expansion is another method, however not usually advisable. By stretching out the stereo image you risk putting it out of phase. That translates into a very funky and unsolidified mix.

You can achieve width by simply panning, and/or in combination with delay or something along the lines of a stereo delay.

Depth is probably the second hardest to achieve next to height. Traditionally, you achieve this through intricate use of delay, reverb and EQ (not in a normal fashion). These are the tools that start you off to replicating the real source in it's real space.

Also, how you mic your source and how much air you put between the source and the mic makes a difference.

3) There is a big difference in what we call "powerpot panning" and virtual panning.

As I once stated before,

Powerpot panning is the act of physically panning something left or right
Virtual Panning is the act of panning something with an effect to create the illusion of a certain location.

Thats why you can't do brunt mixwork with headphones. Not because some asshole said so, but because our ears and brains behave differently with headphones.

4) If you're going to mix truly in depth, then you cannot hope to do so effectively until you understand how the human brain and ears perceive sound.

So the huge difference between pro mixing and undefined mixing is the expert use of the binaural effect. This will mean you'll have to understand 3 major things: The Haas Effect, the masking effect and the physics behind reverberation and how the ear perceives sound based on reflections. It's more complex than just a "source and then reverb" relationship.

So consequently, simply panning shit left and right and dabbing some reverb on it isn't enough. Not with a 500 dollar system and not with a multimillion dollar SSL equipped studio. These concepts are still true anywhere because of these basic principles.

It's like shading in your 2D drawing. It might look 3d, but it's still 2D.

It's the difference between drawing two identical objects on paper and drawing to identical objects, but then being able to cut them out and manipulate them.

So I won't go in detail, but I will leave you with these questions:

-What about delay, delay settings, aux panning to that delay and the amount of level set to that delay?

-What about good quality reverb, reverb settings, aux panning to that reverb and the amount of level set to that reverb?

-What relationship does reverb and delay have with each other?

-Do you think if you recorded something thats not too far off EQ wise, that you *have* to attack it with EQ first? Or is there another and more effective method to try before EQing? *hint*

-How about phase relationships?

-Is Lee Rosario full of shit? (damn right he is) :D. But is he right? (I'll leave that up to you)

If you already know this, ignore it. It's review at best.

Good day Gentlemen :)
 
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Yes..I said in the earlier post..Distants helps..Which is true. But you can't really do everything back to far. That would be weird..

So I mic drums with a little more air in between then most guys I see... I have a big room so it helps. When I do bass..I'm Using a mic pretty close and blending a D/I sometimes...On bass cab I've been using Blue Bottle or U48.

Acu gtr..Now here it depends..I just did this 2 days ago..I used the U48 at the 12fret back a little.. With a AKG 391b on the neck near the nut... Now I can get closer with the U48 because it's not as hot as say the Bottle or 4047.. But not a weak as the R121. I also cut another Acu using the R121 (backside) so it was a little brighter...Leaving the Royer's front facing away from the gtr..So right there I'm picking up some room...

Now that I think of it. On that session I had to record kick,snare, hat one cymbal..Sort of slower tune. I used the Royer as a mono overhead. So you get a little room..But with Ribbons the room doesn't jump out like a condenser..

Gtr amps..I use mics pretty close..and some times back a bit. I've used a U99 about 10ft back.. while I hand the R121 and U195 close.. So I could later blend in that Room mic...Which is way more natural then an IR plugin.

I don't like the U48 to close on amps..back it's ok. The bottle works on amps..Pretty much works every where..just so damn big it's hard to use sometimes.

Same with vocals..I have Iso rooms..They never get used anymore. Everything sounds great in my Live room so I tend to do everything in there.. I singer close to a mic in that room you don't hear a ton of room...But it's also not dead at all. I think it really helps gel all the instruments..Sounds like it was all cut at once.

But Mics and Preamps..and getting use to were the work best and learning my rooms..Has made mixing go so much smoother over there years then any one trick..Things sort of blend on there own..
 
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