Mixing levels

[jazzyblues]

I'm new with Sonar, and I'm having trouble with mixing levels. When I'm mixing, I find myself lowering the levels way down to where the volume is really low to try and make things sound even.
I'll put the drums around halfway, then I go from there. Then the drums start sounding too loud, so I lower them. Then the rhythm pianos sound too loud, so I lower them...and so on.
What's the secret?

 

[moskus]

What's the secret?

Why are you just lowering the levels? Can't you just make the others higher?

 

[dachay2tnr]

There ain't no secrets, just learning curves.

Your problem might be that you need to place the instruments better in the sound spectrum, using panning, reverb, eq, etc. When instruments are properly placed, they tend to conflict less with each other. You should be able to hear each instrument individually when things are mixed properly.

You have left to right to work with (panning), front to back (usually reverb), and up and down (eq). Don't eq anything solo'd. Eq it while it is in context in the mix. Frequently what may sound horrible when solo'd, is exactly what is right when placed in the mix.

There are many ways of working. One approach might be to mute everything except the bass, kick, snare and lead vocal. All of these are normally panned center. I usually use the lead vocal as my guide, and set the volume of everything else in realation to the lead vox - since that is usually the focus of the song. Once you get these 4 working together, start bringing in the other instruments one by one. Here is where you are probably going to start panning things. You may have to go back the readjust the volume levels on some of the original instruments, but try and leave the lead vox as is.

Try and make sure each instrument can be heard and has a place in the mix. Also make sure the mix stays balanced - not too much left or right.

Hope that helps somewhat.

 

[jazzyblues]

Thanks for the info.

I lower some instruments because sometimes they appear too loud. After I lower them, another appears to be too loud...etc. Next thing you know, the overall volume is too low.

Part of my problem is that I just found out that my right ear has lost some hearing. So I'm not hearing things 100% - and it's a bit frustrating.

But I also wanted to know about where to put the level for the mix on Sonar? Is it about halfway or so? Or is it just under the red? How do you determine that?

Like I said, I'm new at this.

 

[dachay2tnr]

IMHO, the mix should be just under the clipping point at your Main Outs with the Main fader at unity.

Use the meters to gauge this. If you find that you are well under the clip point for most of the song, but get real close at a few spots, you need to find the track that is causing that and deal with using compression or a volume envelope.

 

[rpe]

I'm no expert but I totally agree with what dachay2tnr said:

"I usually use the lead vocal as my guide, and set the volume of everything else in realation to the lead vox - since that is usually the focus of the song. Once you get these 4 working together, start bringing in the other instruments one by one. Here is where you are probably going to start panning things. You may have to go back the readjust the volume levels on some of the original instruments, but try and leave the lead vox as is."

I've had success with this also and have read tons of articles on mixing that support this method.

rpe

 

[jazzyblues]

What I'm doing right now is instrumental. So I guess I just need to focus on one instrument and adjust the rest accordingly. I tried doing that with the drums, but it didn't work for me.

I really appreciate all your help.

 

[dachay2tnr]

What I'm doing right now is instrumental.

Same principle. Focus on the lead instrument. If this changes during the course of the song, you will probably need to use volume envelopes to bring the instrument up when it's handling the lead and down when it's in the background.

 

[jazzyblues]

I was listening to the mix I had, and in having the mix too low, it becomes muddy.
So I'll start all over.

Thanks!

 

[something cool]

Keep in mind that if you mix with all your levels low, then you're just going to have to do that much more to bring the volume up to a "professional" level. Most professional works are mastered REALLY LOUD, so if you put your low-leveled track next to a professional mix, there's gonna be a huge difference in volume. In order to get up to that "professional" volume level, you generally need to dabble in some compression and/or limiting, which affects the overall sound and feel of your piece. The less compression/limiting you have to do to bring the levels up, the better, so, better to mix it hot and limit it less.

 

[jazzyblues]

I remixed a couple of songs, using the lead instrument as a gauge, and it helped.

But what exactly does "limiting" do? I use compression a little. I searched "Help" on either Sonar or SoundForge, and it says to use both Compression and Normalize.
But I don't understand what "limiting" does/is.

 

[dachay2tnr]

But what exactly does "limiting" do?

Limiting establishes a "ceiling for the highest volume level allowed.

If you limit to -1db, for example, the limiter will not let the volume exceed that level. Many people feel that a compressor set to a high ratio (say 20:1) is essentially functioning as a limiter.

 

[jazzyblues]

OK. Thanks for explaining that.

 

[Teacher]

i try to keep my overall mix Peaking at around -3 db

Internal headroom in S/W mixers pre fader is very limited so gain staging the individual tracks in the mix is very important don't want to have everything to loud then everything will sound crammed

 

[jazzyblues]

Thanks, you've all been very helpful. I've got a lot to learn.

 

[Middleman]

There are inside level and outside levels.

Keep your Sonar levels around -3 as teacher stated. Keep your outside levels at your average mixing volume.

Many of the pros, please don't ask me who or I will have to get out the Mixing Engineers Handbook, start with the kick drum around -5 to -7 and build the rest of the mix around that.

Keep your Sonar levels up though, so when you mix down or export the resulting file it's at the right volume.

 

[jazzyblues]

So far with the remixes I've done (following the advice in this forum), the levels are around 0 (between -3 and 3 in Sonar). That's probably just a tad higher than what you've said, though.
And I tried starting with the drums, but I found, for me, that drums are about the last to add in the mix.
It seems for be working, as far as my ears can tell. I like what I'm hearing.

 

[dachay2tnr]

So far with the remixes I've done (following the advice in this forum), the levels are around 0 (between -3 and 3 in Sonar).

Are you speaking about the levels as shown on the meter for the Master bus? If so, they should not be exceeding 0 db, otherwise you will be likely to get some clipping (digital distortion) in your final mix.

If you have the mix the way you want it, just lower the master fader a tad to bring the peak level(s) to below 0 db. Or, if it is just an occasional spike, this is where a limiter might come in handy.

 

[jazzyblues]

On the master volume I noticed that the fader is up really high - around level 3. The volume level peaks around 0, maybe as high as -3 occasionally.
But is it normal for the master fader to be up so high? I would think it would be around halfway in order to give you more room to work with.

 

[mixsit]

On the mater volume I noticed that the fader is up really high - around level 3. The volume level peaks around 0, maybe as high as -3 occasionally.
But is it normal for the master fader to be up so high? I would think it would be around halfway in order to give you more room to work with.

The mixer has internal headroom, so you can let the mix exceed +0 (red) and pull the master fader down to compensate. But I still prefer to be where you're at; coming in a bit under on the mix (with the master at zero) and bringing the master up a bit, so the mix comes in just under zero.
From your earlier post about what inst. to start the mix with, I'll offer another method to consider; Bing all the tracks (or at least most of the primary ones) up at once at moderate levels, to where the mix has some room to grow comfortably below max. Rough it in from there. A quick seat-of-the-pants mix. Some up a bit, some down.
Sometimes the fresh outlook rough-in can be very intuitive and useful.
At least you have one good thing going for you. A lot of people keep pushing things up as they mix and run out of headroom along the way.
FWIW IMHO, I don't go along with the 'low mix' sounds muddy theory. Be sure you're using equal loudness when comparing. And as mentioned before, don't confuse un-processed 'mix level' with finished mix loudness. It's ok in digi wth a mix that comes in below zero. It's just a master fader tweek away from being brought up to max. Finished loudness is all about dynamic range -on the tracks, and after on the mix, and nothing about un-processed miv 'level'.
See ya.
Wayne