Mixing compressed drums with uncompressed

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macle

macle

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Hi,
I've seen this talked about a lot, where you compress the drums and mix them in with the uncompressed, maybe just the kick and snare, or maybe the whole kit. So, when I try this , the sound is a bit phasey, even when I adjust the compressed kit around sample by sample. I like the punch it's giving, but should it sound completely phaseless, or maybe it's supposed to be a little phasey?

Thanks a lot,
Macle
 
why would you mix them. I mean.. you record drums and you compress them if necessary. So why blending with the old signal? Or am I just stupid and don't understand the question?
 
Shouldnt be a problem if you have them lined back up... try printing the effects if you are using plugins and maybe you'll eliminate the latency the plugs may be creating.
It does make it punchier though, doesnt it? :) I'll do this with damn near every track sometimes.
Its an old trick, by the way, used by many a pro from time to time.
 
Brett-I guess the idea is to have the punchiness of the compressed, but keep the naturalness or the openess of the uncompressed, though I'm not sure it's working for me!

tubedude-I did print the effects, and then slid them around sample by sample. Still seems to have a fuzziness though, no matter where I put them. So it shouldn't have the fuzziness at all, right? Or should it?

Thanks,
Macle
 
So I ran the uncompressed drums out through the Distressor on bypass, and that seems to be much better. So I have to print both. I don't know why I couldn't get it to match up moving it around by the sample. Oh well.

So my next question would be in regard to the compressing of the whole kit verses just the kick and snare. Which do you (you being anyone out there) prefer, and why? What sort of music or song suits which best? Any examples of songs I could listen to?

Thanks a lot,
Macle
 
Macle:

I am no expert at this, but I do have a book handy. "The mixing Engineer's Handbook" by Bobby Owsinski. I really love your work, and I definitely want to hear your stuff being even better. So I am gonna type this page for you:)

What you are talking about is called New York Compression Trick in this book:

To dos:
"1)Buss the drums, and maybe even the bass, to a stereo compressor.

2)Hit the compressor fairly hard, at least 10dB or more if it sounds good.

3)Return the output of the compressor to a pair of fader inputs on the console.

4)Add a pretty good amount of high end (6-10dB at 10kHz or so) and low end (6-10dB at 100Hz or so) to the compressed signal.

5)Now bring the fader levels of the compressor up until it's tucked just under the present rhythm section mix to where you can just hear it.

The ryhthm section will now sound bigger and more controlled without sounding overly compressed"

Also, Joe Chiccarelli does this, "if the kick and bass aren't locked together or big enough to glue the record, I will....(the same steps)...This helps fit the bass and kick lower on the record and gets it out of the way of the vocal".

I hope this info will help. Keep up the great work, and please don't tell me you already know everything I just typed, too. lol

AL
 
macle said:
Hi,
I've seen this talked about a lot, where you compress the drums and mix them in with the uncompressed, maybe just the kick and snare, or maybe the whole kit. So, when I try this , the sound is a bit phasey, even when I adjust the compressed kit around sample by sample. I like the punch it's giving, but should it sound completely phaseless, or maybe it's supposed to be a little phasey?

Thanks a lot,
Macle
Click to expand...
That is known as the New York style of mixing and it's very common....... if you're using s/w, you are likely getting "phase issues" because of latency... you 'd need to do a submix to other tracks, move it ahead a few mSecs and then apply the compression to the submix. I don't see how you could be getting phase issues if you're using h/w, unless the compressor you're using is digital...

I use this technqiue occasionally and never experienced phase problems......

Bruce
 
I never heared of the technique, thx for making me familiar with it now!
 
I recorded some drums to a 4-track then imported them into cubase and laid overdubs in digital.

Sounds really nice like a multi texture thing happening in there.

Just an observation...
 
AL- I'll have to check out that book. Thanks especially for the EQing bit, I'll definitely try that, and also the bit about using it on the bass (not clear, exactly. Are they bussing the bass together, mixed with the drums? The whole kit, or just kick and snare?) Thanks.

Bruce-I'm going from Paris out to a Distressor, and back, so there's definitely latency. I messed with it again, and I think if I move the compressed drums forward 1ms, then back 17 samples, there is (as far as I can tell), no phasing. I don't know what I was doing wrong before. Do you do the whole kit, or just kick and snare? Thanks.

Brett-You're welcome! :) I've been messing with it, and I think it's definitely gonna be an improvement. Those crazy New Yawkers.

Mixit-G-Do you mean mixing samples with real drums? I've done that before. Can be cool, for sure. Thanks.

Macle
 
The author didn't specify about bass with the whole kit or just the kick and snare, but Joe Chiccarelli says if the kick and bass aren't locked together, he would send "just" the kick and bass to a seperate compressor, add some low end if it's not big enough, then blend them back in.
From my interpretation, I think he compresses the whole drum kit with one compressor except bass and kick, and buss kick and bass to a different compressor. Then blend them all back under the uncompressed kit/bass.

I hope this helps, good luck

AL
 
macle said:
Bruce-I'm going from Paris out to a Distressor, and back, so there's definitely latency. I messed with it again, and I think if I move the compressed drums forward 1ms, then back 17 samples, there is (as far as I can tell), no phasing. I don't know what I was doing wrong before. Do you do the whole kit, or just kick and snare? Thanks.
Click to expand...
Whole kit, including kick/snare plus bass... with the hi AND lo-shelving EQ applied (quite a lot too - 6db or more on each) and tuck that compressed/eq'd mix back in just under the other (so it's not obvious, but just adds "meat"!)

Bruce
 
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Mixit-G-Do you mean mixing samples with real drums?

Nah not really... its not really relevant to this discussion, sorry.
 
...not to change the subject, but Macle....... when are you gonna post something new in the clinic? I love your stuff man, and im looking forward to it!!:D
 
AL-yes, it helps a lot! Thanks very much.

Bruce-Thank you very much as well.

MiXit-G-Perfectly okay. :)

Guernica-Thanks. Well, I'm down to the last 2 songs on this supposed CD I'm working on. They were really already done, but I wasn't happy with them, so I'm redoing em. :rolleyes: :( :mad:
But hopefully soon. I was kinda thinking I might not post them, though, just to have something that's not old news on the actual CD. But maybe I will anyway, though, just to see what you all think. Thanks a lot for asking!!

Andres-Great article. Thanks. Will try that on vocals for sure.

Macle
 
...ya have to give us dedicated fans a prior listen. When the CD come out...... i'll buy one of those too.
Be cool, Mike:D
 
Thanks Mike. I suppose it could still be interesting to hear, if just for the difference of it being remixed and mastered by a pro (will be to me, anyway! :) )

Thanks again,
Macle
 
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