Mixes on my BX8's don't translate at all!

Yareek said:
On that note, I didn't like any of the monitors I listened to, which included the Mackie 824's, KRK V6's, V8's, Rokit RP5's, RP6's, RP8's, Event TR20's, M-Audio BX5's, and EMU PM5's. Almost all of these speakers had too little high end detail for my tastes, most of them seemed to have a lot of bass or mid bass (probably just the room).
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Either the room or your ears. Based upon your description of too much bass, probably the room more than anything else. There is such a wide range of speaker sound and quality in your list that to lump them all together as all sounding bad and all sounding bad in the same way is absolutely ludicrous. There are couple of speakers in that list that have high end response so crisp that some people think they are too bright; conversely there are a couple of models in there that no one would accuse of having too much bass, and often wind up augmenting with subwoofers.

The bad news, you've been completly duped and disserviced by a bad room. The good news, you now understand first-hand just how important room placement and room treatment actually is. :)

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
Either the room or your ears. Based upon your description of too much bass, probably the room more than anything else. There is such a wide range of speaker sound and quality in your list that to lump them all together as all sounding bad and all sounding bad in the same way is absolutely ludicrous. There are couple of speakers in that list that have high end response so crisp that some people think they are too bright; conversely there are a couple of models in there that no one would accuse of having too much bass, and often wind up augmenting with subwoofers.

The bad news, you've been completly duped and disserviced by a bad room. The good news, you now understand first-hand just how important room placement and room treatment actually is. :)

G.
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Oh I didn't mean to say that they were bad, I just didn't like the high end detail out of any of them. Some of the nicer and smaller ones had better midrange detail, but I couldn't judge the low end because of the room.

For instance, every KRK I've heard except the V4 sounds too laid back in the high end. Mackie's sound incredibly nice but have just a hair of a grainy high end and masked some of the details that other speakers revealed. The Events had absolutely no midrange, which could just mean that they were incredibly hyped in the highs and the room hyped up the bass too much.

Or someone hid a low shelf boost EQ behind all the equipment :D

But for most of the speakers, I'd say that it's a different "flavor" and not necessarily a step up from the BX8's. And the QUALITY speakers, the Genelecs, Dynaudios, JBL's, weren't hooked up at all.

So my purchase of the Blue Skies is based on a couple things; even if it is a "sidestep" from my BX8's, the much smaller size will allow me to better place them on my desk and in my room, allowing me to mix at a comfortable volume and distance. They have a reputation for being non-fatiguing and possibly having a very high end lift which I'm overcompensating for on the BX8's. The subwoofer allows me to address the bass of the mix instead of guessing as I am with the BX8's. And all of this will be a premium of maybe a couple hundred dollars once the BX8's are sold.

And next year, if I'm doing more projects, I'll build a few bass traps for the room and work on that instead of spending cash on better monitors.
 
Yareek said:
They always end up sounding really loud in the sub bass, muddy in the low end, and rolled off up top.
QUOTE]

That sounds like a textbook case of a need for low-end absorption. Bass traps are probably what you need in the corners, maybe some broadband behind the monitors and to the sides forward of the mixing position. You can mount most stuff like studiofoam or rigid fiberglass where it doesn't take much to take it down and maybe a little patch over hook holes or screw holes when you move. Building your own is cheapest, but there is some decently priced open cell foam treatment out there as well.
Ethan Winer has a great article on www.realtraps.com , relating to the top ten things someone can do in a small space to improve the sound, several of the ten things being free or cheap.
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Yareek said:
They always end up sounding really loud in the sub bass, muddy in the low end, and rolled off up top.
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By the way this is how my mixes sound, as the monitors were kind of the opposite.

I'd like to get some bass traps built next year if I'm still doing mixing work. I usually only mix my own bands but I'm on hiaitus from playing. I do have a few groups that seem to like what I do and want me to mix their stuff, so probably by next spring I'll be back at it. Just a matter of me finishing up a bunch of other projects before I start building more stuff.

My new mixing room is a lot better, but it is a rental. I've got a decent sized office, maybe 10'x12' or so, carpeted floors, a bookcase full of books, and a case full of CD's behind me. I'm thinking about putting a loveseat in the room behind me and moving the CD's to the side opposite the books as a short term solution. I just hope I can find a way to keep renting this place next year.
 
I also second it being the room for the reason your BX8's to sound like that. We have a pair of these in the studio, and they sound great. When we mix stuff down using the bx8's they've always done their job exceptionally well.
 
Yareek said:
I just didn't like the high end detail out of any of them. Some of the nicer and smaller ones had better midrange detail, but I couldn't judge the low end because of the room.
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You can't assess bass or mids and highs in an untreated room. The issues are very different, but both ranges are important to treat for.

--Ethan
 
Well I've heard BX8's in five different rooms, only one of which came close to being treated. They sounded pretty similar in all of them.

Like I said, they're going away. I don't care if I mix on the Blue Sky's or on an executive shelf system, I just don't want the monitors three inches from my head anymore.
 
Yareek said:
Oh I didn't mean to say that they were bad, I just didn't like the high end detail out of any of them. Some of the nicer and smaller ones had better midrange detail, but I couldn't judge the low end because of the room.

For instance, every KRK I've heard except the V4 sounds too laid back in the high end. Mackie's sound incredibly nice but have just a hair of a grainy high end and masked some of the details that other speakers revealed. The Events had absolutely no midrange, which could just mean that they were incredibly hyped in the highs and the room hyped up the bass too much.

Or someone hid a low shelf boost EQ behind all the equipment :D

But for most of the speakers, I'd say that it's a different "flavor" and not necessarily a step up from the BX8's. And the QUALITY speakers, the Genelecs, Dynaudios, JBL's, weren't hooked up at all.

So my purchase of the Blue Skies is based on a couple things; even if it is a "sidestep" from my BX8's, the much smaller size will allow me to better place them on my desk and in my room, allowing me to mix at a comfortable volume and distance. They have a reputation for being non-fatiguing and possibly having a very high end lift which I'm overcompensating for on the BX8's. The subwoofer allows me to address the bass of the mix instead of guessing as I am with the BX8's. And all of this will be a premium of maybe a couple hundred dollars once the BX8's are sold.

And next year, if I'm doing more projects, I'll build a few bass traps for the room and work on that instead of spending cash on better monitors.
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Yareek,

you aren't making very much sense. You say that your mixes come out "muddy" on your BX8's, with too much low end. You also pointed out that your BX8's always sounded too bright and this might be part of the cause. Then you go on to say that you ordered a set of blue skys because they have a "high end lift". WHAT???

I, too, went into guitar center one day and auditioned all of the monitors they had on display. They didn't have the blue skys, but they had all of the other ones that you mentioned. And I came to the same conclusion that you did. They all pretty much sucked. And this room was treated, mind you. The mackies were muddy as hell. So were the alesis. the dynaudios didn't have enough bass. etc, etc. The only ones I liked were the genelec 8040s. And if I had to pick one of the cheapies, it would have been the M-audio's, which coincidentally, is what I already had.

I, too have had translation problems with the M-audio's, but I've also done some "perfect" mixes on them. As far as having to boost the highs on your mix to compensate, I too have had that experience. But, only after noticing that the majority of commercial releases have a high end that is unnatural, anyway. just some thoughts.
 
FALKEN said:
Yareek,

you aren't making very much sense. You say that your mixes come out "muddy" on your BX8's, with too much low end. You also pointed out that your BX8's always sounded too bright and this might be part of the cause. Then you go on to say that you ordered a set of blue skys because they have a "high end lift". WHAT???

I, too, went into guitar center one day and auditioned all of the monitors they had on display. They didn't have the blue skys, but they had all of the other ones that you mentioned. And I came to the same conclusion that you did. They all pretty much sucked. And this room was treated, mind you. The mackies were muddy as hell. So were the alesis. the dynaudios didn't have enough bass. etc, etc. The only ones I liked were the genelec 8040s. And if I had to pick one of the cheapies, it would have been the M-audio's, which coincidentally, is what I already had.

I, too have had translation problems with the M-audio's, but I've also done some "perfect" mixes on them. As far as having to boost the highs on your mix to compensate, I too have had that experience. But, only after noticing that the majority of commercial releases have a high end that is unnatural, anyway. just some thoughts.
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what he said+emphazise


As far as having to boost the highs on your mix to compensate,
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Your going to have to spend many times more $$$ to get "real" monitors ( which will still have deficiencys! ........... I'm not diss'in alesis, great stuff for the price range) and invest lots more of your time to avoid this , and you still won't be able to completely do so. You room will have a tremendous effect and then you must become utterly familiar and acustomend to your paticular monitors.

THEN you will also need to enlist the services of ( and better still, develop a proffessional relationship) with an M.E. and his room and speakers to hone it to a fine gloss.


No , this is'nt that easy is it?? :D ;) :p :D
 
Yareek said:
Well I've heard BX8's in five different rooms, only one of which came close to being treated. They sounded pretty similar in all of them.

Like I said, they're going away. I don't care if I mix on the Blue Sky's or on an executive shelf system, I just don't want the monitors three inches from my head anymore.
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So much emphasis on equipment...I have been and continue to be that way, but just READ this article...even gave you the link. http://www.realtraps.com/art_vibes.htm

If you try these things and they don't work, go buy some Genelecs and enjoy the pristinely accurate muddiness you'll still hear.
 
This thread emphasizes the difference between audio engineers, audiophiles and gearheads:

Engineers make imperfect mixes from imperfect gear.

Audiophiles make imperfect mixes from perfect gear.

Gearheads don't make mixes, they're too busy upgrading ther gear.

G.
 
Well I flat out give up. I've been tearing my hair out on these mixes for over a month now and only up until last week was I happier than the rough mixes I did the night of recording the main tracks. I don't know if it's my ears, my room, my monitors, or what but I'm chasing my tail trying to nail a decent lively mix without either completely screwing up the bass or the treble in general.

Pretty much I'm at the point of either giving up mixing altogether or else just building a clone of my car system (Vifa XT25's and Seas W18NX's...which would run about $500 on drivers alone). But at the end of the day I'm trying to fight the room and the desk and all this crap.

Here's one song I've been working on and it sounds okay if a little bland on my monitors but really out of balance on most anything else. Here's another one that told me I apparently can't hear reverb AT ALL on my monitors but on my parents' $5 computer speakers it's plain as day.

So should I hang up the mouse and go back to playing the instruments or pursue local mixing gigs?
 
Did you read the article in the link yet? There are some common things that could be going on that is causing your BX8s to not translate your mixes well. I know you don't have any treatment in your room, but do you have any isolation pads/devices for your monitors?
 
Alright let me try this again.

I will have some vacation time over the next couple months to work on this room. It's a rental, so I can't do anything permanent, but I figure I can improve the layout and build temporary things.

I've got an SPL meter, tape measure, some of that fancy studio foam I salvaged from a radio station construction project, speaker stands, and possibly access to fiberglass wool rolls.

This is my current layout. There's a bookcase to my right and several racks of CD's behind me. I do have access to a love seat I can put where the CD's are. To my left is a closet, but it's rarely used so I could block it.

Room.jpg


According to that article, if I were to move my desk to the shorter wall, that would help, right? And I could put the large monitors on speaker stands to move further away. Would hanging panels with the studio foam help at all? How about putting a love seat in the room to absorb low frequencies? And would I be better off with fiberglass bass traps or absorbing panels?
 
Yes, desk where the CD rack is along the 9' wall, centered from side to side. Clothes in your closet to the rear should help with a little absorption. I'm not sure what frequencies they would help absorb, but I would guess at least some of the mid -highs. If it is open-celled acoustic foam, then yeah, put some behind your desk and some to either side of your ears on the walls. DEFININTELY put something in the corners, especially if you have access to that mineral wool. I'll bet your BX8s are going to sound a lot different once you do this. An 8" woofer is spitting out a lot of low frequency.
 
Yes..move your desk to the 9' wall, about 3-3.5' away from the wall, and equal distance from both 11' walls.

Then get something in all 4 corners for bass trapping. A friend of mine bought a pack of 3" rock wool...never took it out of the plastic bag, ..and just threw them in the corners of his room...made a dramatic difference.

Then..after positioning your monitors, have a friend walk a small mirror (at listening level/monitor level) against the 11' walls while you're sitting in your listening position. As soon as you start seeing your monitors in the mirror, throw some of your foam there, and anywhere where the monitors appear in the mirror as well as directly behind the desk (on the 9' wall)

Symmetry is key,..so, if you have a CD rack on one side of the room, try to put something on the exact opposite side around the same size/dimensions.

Hope this helps,

-LIMiT
 
Good points. And if you don't want to buy something pre-manufactured, make something to put under your monitors if they are sitting on your desk. I use MoPads from Auralex. They were a gift from a friend of mine that works there, but sell for only $40 or so.
 
Yareek said:
Here's one song I've been working on and it sounds okay if a little bland on my monitors but really out of balance on most anything else. Here's another one that told me I apparently can't hear reverb AT ALL on my monitors but on my parents' $5 computer speakers it's plain as day.
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I don't know what gear you're using, but I listened to "Oil Cat" and I don't see what your problem is with the mix, or the overall sound in general.

I can think of a few things that I would personally do differently, like the guitar panned right sounds like its by itself. I would either pan it more to the left a little, or pan some of the drums to the right as well. The mix seemed kind of lop-sided to me, everything was more to the left.

This could be because you don't have the speakers centered in the room (equal distance between speakers and left/right walls). And also some absorbers on the left/right walls as well.

Doing this will help with the stereo imaging.

After looking at the picture of your room, it looks like you should center your desk. There's more distance between the left speaker/left wall, than the right one. Maybe this could have something to do with your lop-sided mix.

Other than that it sounded good. I think maybe you're being too hard on yourself.
 
Thanks for the tips. I'll try and get some progress this weekend in moving my furniture and setting it up.

So I should space my desk from the wall a couple feet? Would it be bad to have something in front of it, like a clothes rack? I play hockey and hang my equipment on a big drying rack...maybe that would act as a diffusor?
 
Diffusion is the opposite of absorption. As a general rule as I understand it, you want diffusion in the rear of the room if anything. The rear is where you will the soundwaves will go after they glide by your ears. The reflection you want as a return should be well dispersed, or "diffused". Behind your monitors, you want absorption because you will get sound at close proximity, even 3' (and that is GREAT if you can do that spacing and not closer to your wall...actually there is a formula that calculates the ideal distance based on the width of your side walls), reflecting back to your ears, creating a false echo in a sense....what you hear directly from the speakers and the closely-timed reflections coming back from your front wall. Thick clothes would help, but something a little a little more absorbant would be better I would say. Centering your desk along the shorter span and something in the corners would probably make the most difference, and isolating your monitors from the desk. And the given, making sure your monitors are angled to your ears, not level but a foot above of below, but at your ears and spread far enough apart not to aim into your ears.
 
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