Mixers, Preamps and Confusion

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dachay2tnr

dachay2tnr

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Thinking about setting up computer hard disk recording. I know I need a sound card, mics, and software - but I'm confused about mixer/preamps.

I want to have a 5 or 6 microphone input which will be used simultaneously to record individual tracks. It seems then that I would also need 5-6 preamps (which can get awfully expensive). The alternative seems to be a mixer, but won't a mixer just give me 1 or two outputs; in other words doesn't it take multiple signals and mix them down to stereo? If that's the case then I can't establish seperate tracks for each mic. Am I missing something.
 
If you have a mixer like a Mackie 1402 or 1604VLZ you use the channel inserts as direct sends to your sound card. This way you can have as many dicreet sends as you have mixer channels with inserts on them. And with this type of mixer you can also buss multiple mics into a single or stereo buss with the group outs. Very simple.
 
Track Rat:

Thanks for the response. It does sound simple (although the name "channel insert" sounds misleading for an output line). I took a look at the Mackie 1402, which seems to have 6 XLR inputs along with 6 channel inserts. Ideal for my situation. Also, at around $549.00 it's not much more expensive than some of the 2-channel preamps I have seen.

Any familiarity with Soundcards? I have come across a Delta 10/10 and a Gadgetlabs Wave 824 which both seem to offer what I need (i.e., eight input lines). The Wave 824 is about $200.00 cheaper. Any suggestions? Thanks again.
 
the mackie 1402 et al's channel inserts are not really considered real outputs because mainly they are not balanced. one of the more expensive 1600s have 16 ins, 16 outs. balanced=costs money.

also if u get 3 2-channel preamps you have the "Flexibility" of different sounds.. though i'm sure the vlz pro sounds good. but then so does the cheaper behringer in my opinion.

i have the midiman1010. bought it used at the cost of less than the gadgetlabs824, works great. personally, i love buying things used so i would recommend doing that.
 
Oldseed - Thanks. However, once again I'm confused. Is there a downside to the fact that the channel inserts are not "balanced" connections? Will I lose any tonal quality through an unbalanced connection? I checked the Mackie site and one of their FAQ's asks whether the insert is an input or output connection - their answer was "it's both".

You also seem to feel that preamps are a better route than a mixer. Is this due to balanced output, or other reasons. I did run across a couple of 8-chl preamps. The Tascam MA-8 runs about $450.00. While the Presonus Digimax runs around $1200.00. Prices are all over the place (although the Digimax seems to offer compression along with a pad on each channel. It also provides digital output - which I shouldn't need as I believe the sound card does the A/D conversion.

Looking to avoid making a mistake on any of this stuff, so whatever advice I can come by is appreciated.
 
Oldseed - Follow-up to my last message. I did a little research on my own. Found a good article on balanced vs unblanced on about.com. They indicate that the problem with unbalanced cabling is that it can introduce noise (which in a recording environment is not too desirable). They specifically cite Mackie on this issue - so thanks for the heads up.

The article also explains why Mackie's connections are both an input and output (they assign the input to the + side and the output to the - side - which is why it's not balanced).

So now I still don't know what to buy - but I guess it'll be a mixer with balanced channel outs, or preamps.
 
Don't be fooled by the unbalanced problem. It would only be an issue if the cable runs were long. Don't waste your money unless you have enough to burn. Using the inserts as sends will give you VERY good results.
 
Everyone (in my opinion) should have a mixer. They are invaluable studio tools. In fact, what do most people think of when you say 'studio'? A ruddy great mixer, that's what.

Sorry about the rant, but a mixer is so much more that a collection of pre-amps.

Oh, on the balanced issue, it's not worth worrying about balanced outputs on the mixer unless all the bits of equipment in the signal chain are also balanced, I'm thinking particularly of the soundcard. Is the 824 balanced? The 1010 definateley is. I don't have enough balanced gear to use balancing, and I don't have any noise problems!

You can get a Behringer Eurorack 2642A (I think that's what it's called) in the UK for £300 (maybe $500). This has 8 mono channels with preamps, all balanced ins, with a balanced direct out on each channel, inserts on each channel, 4 group outs (also balanced) and also a whole load of stereo line level channels. It's not the greatest quality mixer in the world, but it very useful and I'm very happy with mine!

Gluck,

matt

check: http://www.mp3.com/carolynn
 
The balanced/unbalanced prob is not about noise(at least not in a small homestudio)but about LEVEL. With an unbalanced connection you will normally have a level of -10dBV while a balanced connection will provide you +4dbu. That is exactly what makes a "real" studio sound so much better than a homerecording studio. But as said before balanced means spending money and as you seem to be a newbie it wont make much sense to spend lots of money right in the beginning. If you want to reach good quality you will have to "get balanced".
 
I agree with trackrat and cakey2. Save your money and opt for a mackie 1604vlz. In my opinion this is not overkill. You have more options and save on headaches down the road and if you plan to expand you need a mixer.
Again a mixer solves a plethora of problems.

Duckhead
 
I agree with trackrat and cakey2. Save your money and opt for a mackie 1604vlz. In my opinion this is not overkill. You have more options and save on headaches down the road and if you plan to expand you need a mixer.
Again a mixer solves a plethora of problems.

Duckhead
 
I think the best route to go with a computer setup would be a combination of a small mixer and a couple of pre's. I'm getting a 1402 and currently have an ART MP, eventually I will have a few more pre's to further expand. (for now if I need more mic inputs I'll use my TOA PA head.

If you think that you will need no more than 5 or 6 pre's, then consider the Delta 66 card and a pre with SPDIF out (dbx 386 or envoice mindprint come to mind), get a Mackie 1202 or a behringer mixer and you have a very flexable set up. (short of the mics of course!)

You wouldn't need a big board unless you are mixing down on it. THe 1604 would be nice, but I would favor spending the money on different options.

-jhe
 
Also when using inserts to send a signal diretly to a recorder you are bypassing all EQ and the faders and Aux sends- which is a good or bad thing depending on what you want to do. The Mackie and Behringer boards have alt. 3/4 busses- which means you effectivly have four busses the Left, Right, 3, and 4.
So you can send four differnt signals to your recorder using the pan pots and the 3/4 button. I imagine that you could send a signal to a recorder using a pre fader Aux send, so that's sort of like having another buss or two.

-jhe
 
dachay;
yeah, the about.com article is alright -- i can't say i really liked it..hehe. but yeah.. the mackie's cheaper mixers don't have balanced outputs; just channel inserts..

a balanced signal line (balanced out -> balanced in) can usually have much longer cable runs without problems than unbalanced. but if your cable run is less than a foot, say, in a rack, then it's really no big deal.

the behringer mixers are nice and cheap. yes i do prefer preamps to mixers, especially if you're going the computer route. the computer is the mixer. that's why you pay $400+ for a program like cakewalk, vegas, etc. granted, you won't get a nice big piece of flashy hardware that people will comment on when they go into your room; and u can't fiddle with knobs... but who cares? the knobs are in the software. welcome to the next millenia *grin*..

there are, by the way, mock-mixers that attach to the computer and work with your software, if you really want the physical knobs and faders.

but i mean, if u just want preamps -- buy preamps! the only thing is some mixers (The behringer) are really cheap, and if you know you just want a good clean sound, it might be a way to go...

but otherwise u could get: a symetrixsx202 used..art dual used..etc... and get different sounds.. balanced outputs..etc..
 
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