Mixer opinions?

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RICK FITZPATRICK

RICK FITZPATRICK

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Hello, I am looking for opinions regarding small format analog mixers. I currently have a Studiomaster 20x8x2, but would soon like to upgrade to a 32 input console. I have 2 msr-16's that would be connected for recording and mixdown. This is purely for a home personal studio, so quality is not the most important aspect. I can live with a little noise. What I'm looking for is flexibility and the ability to learn the most I can from this level of mixer. I was considering something like the Mackie 32/8, because of the midi function and expandibility, but the Tascam 3500 or 3700 sounds interesting also, because of the automation package. My budget is $3000 max, and yes I look in ebay all the time. But because I am not familiar with other brands, I thought maybe I could get some other opinions here. Thanks now. Oh, I could possibly up my price bracket to 5k if there were a REALLY good reason or console in that range to think about. Like I said though, possibly. But it would have to earn the other 2k. Ha! The tascam M600 or M700 has been discussed on other forums, but I have never seen either of these, and have no idea of the details of these boards, or thier price range in general. Thanks again.
fitz:)
 
You've probably seen this ad, but the channel input strips on the M-600 were going for around 300 on e-bay. That guy has been listing them for the past three months.

I hear it's one of the finest TASCAM made in it's day.

I think the 3500 or 3700 would be great to go with your rig. Is that snapshot automation, or do those two have flying faders?
 
In that range, be on the look out for a Soundcraft Ghost. Or keep looking on ebay for a used board. That's what I'm doing right now.
 
I may be getting rid of a ghost...the one without automation and with the extra 24 channel expander
 
never seen any on those tascams...but I havent seen to many.
A lot of dudes I know put the mackie ultramix VCA automation on em. Supposedly the mackie software for them will run in XP in win95 emulation mode ( thanks mackie for abandoning people who bought this gear BTW)

sennheiser youll be happy to know I used my analog machine today :) I dont like the way the sample rate conversion software works so I went out of the PC onto tape and recorded off the repro head back to 44.1k so I could make a cd :)
 
I'm thrilled to hear it!

See, that didn't hurt now, did it?;)
 
Hey, thanks gents. I'm in the process of refinancing my house so we'll see what I end up with. It may take a while. But I have tooooooo much to do right now to get this damn set of cables made for the second MSR/midiizer and I/O patch bays. Hey that brings up another question. My actual console that the mixer etc. sits in is custom made. I built it. I can modify it in many ways. Right now I'm getting ready to rewire for 30 tracks + timecode. My present patchbay location is in a belly rackmount under the console. I was thinking about reracking the top right console opening(19" 6U)for the bays instead of the midiizer. Do any of you guys have a set of bays flush with the mixer face. Seems like it would work better that way, but actually I don't really patch that often. Any opinions on this? Probably to each his own huh? Oh, thats another consideration of the next mixer. Size, as I want to place it in my console. Like I said, I can modify it in any way. Its a welded steel frame with lots of goodies on it. Works great. Looks great. With the right mixer in it........shit, I can't wait! 4 reels turnin on the MSR's and 2 reels turnin on the 42b......crap, how much fun can you have:D :D :D
fitz:)

hmmmmm, "4 reels turnin"...think that'll fit in a country song?;)
 
Wow, I just thought about something. Crap, this has serious implications:eek: OK, some input needed. All the mixers in my price range are 8 buss. How many do you REALLY need. Is 8 buss a serious limitation? I mean, tracking different musicians at different times is the ideolgy of the 8 buss, but what about if you are recording music that requires ensamble playing, with very little overdubbing, such as jazz, bluegrass, ethenic etc. I can't even imagine a true jazz ensamble overdubbing tracks later. Besides, that is one thing my next studio is being designed for. Small ensambles with a piano area, drum area/platform?, small ensamble live area with gobos, iso booth and control room. So, in my mind, I maybe have a problem for a single 8 buss mixer. Or am I not thinking correctly here. Maybe 2? How would that work? Ohoh, Excuse me. I think .....
I better lay down:rolleyes: ;)
 
Hey pipline, I answered your link. check it out.
fitz:)
 
Ok here goes another damn bible sized chunk...scuse me While I rant :)

8 busses should be WAY more than you need. VERY few consoles have busses that you'd actually want to run audio through. Avoid using the busses if you can. Lots of companies make passive and active summing modules for cheap that are MUCH better suited for this task.

Busses are mostly for the LAZY or the beginner. I know that consoles are sold and explained that you should just hook your 8 ( or however many ) group or buss outs to their corresponding tape recorder tracks, but dont...

Proper signal chain techniques are to keep the signal path as short as possible. EVERY active device in a signal chain is an amplifier...it is also a distrotion box, and a compressor and an EQ. Sounds like a jest but its not...EVERY active device you go thru will have a serious impact on the fidelity of the original sound.

Most active devices in modern consoles are IC's and class AB ( at best). The best of these devices would instead be DISCRETE and Class A.
Simply put ( dont flame me) Discrete just means that individual semiconductors are used for the amplifying stage, instead of an IC containing zillions of circuits
Class A devices are usually considered to be best. They work by passing both the positive and negative excursions of the waveform
Class AB devices use one amplifying stage to handle the positive side and one to handle the negative side. In a class AB setup, there is a situation called " crossover distortion ". The point where the positive and negative waveforms meet WILL be slightly shifted in time a certain amount causing artefacts, filtering and distortion.

So, how do you hook up the console to the tape recorders then ? And how do you record more than 8 tracks with only 8 busses?

FORGET the part of the manual where they tell you to hook up a buss per track ...

There will usually be in any decent console a " direct out " jack. Hook these up to your tape recorder inputs. Hopefully these will be PRE fader, so that you can still use your faders to adjust your monitor mix. Some of these still pass thru a gawdawful number of amplifiers tho, so....

Maybe your console has channel inserts ? These will usually be even CLEANER than the direct outs, some are switchable pre/post EQ even Use these to your tape if you can.

Anything you arent using on the channel, bypass it or null it out. Especially EQ...try to use the mic itself as your primary EQ. Most console EQ's are so phasey that it can easily cancel a kick out of the overheads.

So heres a small reccomended setup for you:

get a couple patchbays

patchbay 1 : top row tape recorder output
half normalled to
bottom row: console tape return ( or maybe line input)

patchbay 2 : top row insert send
half normalled to
bottom row: insert return

patchbay 3: top row direct out
half normalled to
bottom row tape recorder inputs

patchaby 4: facilites like group outs, aux sends, and some outboard summing modules like a Whirlwind Combiner or some such
 
Wow, never heard that before. Of course, I am only an audio enthusiast playing around with semi pro gear as a hobby right now. Always have. Took a long time to get this far too, but crap, you just tipped me over the edge of the dam. Long way down there. Hmm, how long you been at this? Just curious why your posting here, and not Prorec. Thats dumb, sorry. Ok,I can see I've got a lot to learn on this stuff. But tell me, from what you just said, if thats the case, then why have buss's, or is it groups. For live work?
Why don't they just design a mixer just that way, so idiots like me can't hook them up wrong, and they are configured just for direct out but quality signal paths? Or is that one for the dumb question pile?:rolleyes: Like I said, I admit I'm a total amature at this, and I'm in it for the fun. I'm a musician first, studio wanabe but can't yet second. Ha! Appreciate the info. Thanks. I'll reread what you said about the bays. I think I have
them(2 yes, 1 no) set up close to the way you said, except I don't understand the direct outs/patchbay relationship. Probably because I don't have any. Inserts yes, but never used them yet.(I'm really just getting everything patched in right now, and probably incorrect to your way of thinking. Never had anyone around to explain the "pro" concepts, although I read as much as I can. Its never been a pro endeavor for me. Only home, fun, interest, music hobby. Thats why they call my level of gear semi pro. Too bad I'm not. At least in engineering. Music, thats another story. Give me the 60 chord system anytime. Come to think of it, this studio stuff has taken me away from what I was trying to do in the first place. I think.:p
Well, I guess I'll have to rethink the manuals:D Hmmmmmm, Maybe time to rethink a lot of things. Thats what I like about this forum. Learn somthin new here just about everyday.:D
fitz
 
I never heard that before either. Glad I have direct outs and tape returns.
 
" Hmm, how long you been at this? "

too long/not long enough...the beginnings were SS 454's fault, around 1989

"Just curious why your posting here, and not Prorec. "

Prorec.com is about the same as here, mostly hobbyists just a LOT less traffic. Here theres tons of active people, but mostly youll find me on DALnet IRC

"stuff. But tell me, from what you just said, if thats the case, then why have buss's, or is it groups. For live work? "

In the "olden days" consoles had busses you would be PROUD to run your stuff thru. Sometimes it would even add good stuff, but for single channels, it was still cleaner to go direct. Busses are convenient,especially live! Its the same as console makers putting mic pre's on your console that you wouldnt dare actually plug a mic into...its GREAT if its there and you are out of other mic pre's

"Why don't they just design a mixer just that way, so idiots like me can't hook them up wrong, and they are configured just for direct out but quality signal paths? "

cause mackie has made " 8 buss " the marketing phrase to end all marketing phrases

"Thanks. I'll reread what you said about the bays. I think I have
them(2 yes, 1 no) set up close to the way you said, except I don't understand the direct outs/patchbay relationship. "

if the kick came into channel 1, and direct out 1 is half normalled to tape input 1, you got nothing to patch...if you need to send it to sdomewhere else for sidechaining, itll STILL go to tape in 1 and the sidechain

"pro. Too bad I'm not. At least in engineering. Music, thats another story. Give me the 60 chord system anytime. Come to think of it, this studio stuff has taken me away from what I was trying to do in the first place. I think. "

ahh ENLIGHTENMENT!!! see why I dont play my guitar anymore? :) Keep up with the music, just get your setup so that its EASY for you to throw down ideas, and let the mix handle itself
 
Great info, thanks

Ok, I get it. One other question. Since I've never used the inserts, are they usually post fader? Nevermind, I'll look in my manual. Opps, theyre wrong anyway:D Just kiddin. Reason I ask, if they are prefader,(no direct outs on my mixer) how do you control the level to the tape decks, as I have no controls on the MSR's. Hmmm, I'll fool around with this stuff this weekend, wow, something new to make the recordings better!:cool: Cause so far, they suck. But sure have fun doing it. Of course, when I record, its only for fun anyway, and how the hell do you get good sound in a 9' x 11' x 8' rectangular room anyway? Its temporary, so I'll probably just foam the hell out of it, and DSP it. Ha!
Say, I see you have another offer down the street from me. Its a nice place to live. Country and towne all around. River a mile away. Thats 2 offers here. Lots of music, and production stuff happening here. Maybe not like LA, but I know its happenin out there. Of course, I'm a homebody, just doin it for fun, not profit. Maybe one of these days when I move, and can build what I am really plannin for. Anyway, good luck with your studio. Hope your situation works out. Don't be affraid to ask about the situation here. I've had a quite a few people live with me over the years, and it all worked out for everyone eventually.
fitz:)
 
Wait a minute....

Oh, I forgot to ask this too, if you don't mind?
itll STILL go to tape in 1 and the sidechain
Click to expand...
Howhatwhy???:D I mean, this is out there stuff. Side chain? How do you mean? I understand normaled etc. but not haveing used the inserts, is this just the insert place moved to the patchbay or am I on a tangent? Boy, I could have sworn I had this stuff down:eek: oops, I reread you patch layout. Ok I get it, to insert at the patch bays. I already have 2 insert cords into the bays, that I lay loose above the console, in prep for the eventuallity. However, that was in the "pre-buss days" Ha! What your talking about, is to be able to patch the send to a recorder line in, is that correct?If it is, holy shit. Why did you open this door? It said "keep out" " pros only":D Damn, thats tooooo
good. Then you can insert anything in that path also, correct? Crap, I've gotta stop while I'm ahead here. Thankyou,.....nah, wait aminute here fella:D your not gettin off that easy. Nobody shows me a birthday cake, and then eats it.:p And lives to tell about it. Ha, alright in that case, what the hell do I need these crappy pre's for? I should get another piece of gear(mic pre??)that my wife thinks is going to sit in my room for 10 yrs before it does something right?......Ya! And soffit monitors, and diffusers, and computers, and mics and instruments and tape machines and cables and shops to build the damn studio and stands and gobos and amps and fx and Alishad and opps...did I say that?, he he, I meant Appogee, hehe! and 703 and headphones and slats and hmmmm.....where the heck is my guitar?:D :D
 
" Since I've never used the inserts, are they usually post fader? Reason I ask, if they are prefader,(no direct outs on my mixer) how do you control the level to the tape decks, as I have no controls on the MSR's"

well most are prefader, while the direct out MAY or may not be pre fader. You need to ask if its worth it to have one more amplifier ( at least ) in the way, to make it conventient for levels. All you need to do is turn up or down the mic pre, or the volume of the last device in the chain before the tape recorder input

the smartass answer is: why do you need level control with analog??? just turn it UP man!

"What your talking about, is to be able to patch the send to a recorder line in, is that correct?"

yup...and even better, youll probably have many places to split that same signal from, if it also needs to go somewhere else as a control signal

"Ya! And soffit monitors, and diffusers, and computers, and mics and instruments and tape machines and cables and shops to build the damn studio and stands and gobos and amps and fx and Alishad and opps...did I say that?, he he, I meant Appogee, hehe! and 703 and headphones and slats and hmmmm.....where the heck is my guitar?"

keep your eye on the PRIZE man!!! ask the guitar what you need to do with your recording gear...dont set up the gear then force the guitar to bend to it! thats for technoweenies like me
 
The mackie 32/8 is a good board. Not everyone likes it, as it has certain EQ anomilies that you either like, or hate. But brand new, this board is on sale at most online music stores for $3599, with a list of $4499. This means used, on e-bay (or used in a music store even) it should be less than your $3K price point.

Regarding busses, I've recorded and mixed on 2, 4, 8, 16 and one 24 buss mixer, and its true that more busses give you more flexibility.

However...

If you really understand your gear's capabilities with less busses, you can get around a lot of things.

With 8-busses I've been able to run 5.1 surround on busses 1-6 and musician foldback (stereo) on busses 7/8 with no problems. Can even do 7.1 surround with 8 busses, then use the "master L/R" for foldback :)

A lot of direct outs also help... y-cords and other funky things make up for limitations on boards to some degree.

The number of busses simply limit the amount of unique tracks you can record on your recorder simultaniously.

If you're recording one musician at a time, a 4-buss mixer is perfect.

Microphone ---> input channel --> buss 3/4 --> recorder
recorder monitor out --> input channel --> buss 1/2

When I did the gig with the 16 and 24 buss consoles, I never used more than 10, actually. Both gigs were a 7.1 mix so I used 9/10 for foldback.

If you need help Rick, you're welcome to email me directly or call me, it might be easier than typing :)
 
"The number of busses simply limit the amount of unique tracks you can record on your recorder simultaniously."

the number of busses you have has nothing to do with the number of unique tracks you can record simultaneously
 
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