mixdown hiss

[FALKEN]

still looking at mixdown decks and I noticed most of them do not have dolby. is this because hiss is not an issue? or are you expected to get outboard NR? what do you all use?

 

[Muckelroy]

Noise is not an issue with mixing consoles. It exists to a small degree when you crank the levels up, but most pro and semi-pro boards don't add any noticable noise whatsoever to the signal flow.

Noise IS an issue, in analog tape. Because the erase heads of tape decks do nothing more than re-arrange the magnetic particles in a random order, the result of blank tape, and what resides on all sound recorded on analog tape, is "whitenoise," or "tape hiss."

That's when dolby NR comes into play.

If you're looking for a nice board to use for mixing down with, and you don't wanna rape your wallet, Tascam makes some nice ones. I use an M-308 board. It's 8 channels, with 4 busses, and it rocks.

Good luck. hope that cleared things up a bit for you.

-callie-

 

[FALKEN]

I mean I am looking at mixdown reels and most of them (otari, tascam) dont seem to have any NR, while my multitrack reel does. Is this because it is unneccessary? or because you are supposed to use outboard NR?

 

[jpmorris]

I mean I am looking at mixdown reels and most of them (otari, tascam) dont seem to have any NR, while my multitrack reel does. Is this because it is unneccessary? or because you are supposed to use outboard NR?

Remember, the wider the tracks the better the signal and the less noise.
Unless you have a really badass multitrack, the mixdown deck is going to have much wider tracks than the multitrack.

Multitracks will tend to squish the tracks together, e.g. 1/2" 8-tracks, 1/2" 16-tracks etc or the crazy cassette thing with 1/8" 8-track.

A decent mixdown deck will be quarter-inch 2-track.. almost half the width of the tape per channel. Half-inch stereo is also popular, and the amount of hiss will be correspondingly reduced. For those who are totally made of money, JRF make conversion kits to build 1-inch or even 2-inch stereo recorders.

 

[Muckelroy]

OH ok, i thought you meant mixing consoles my bad.

Yes, indeed, most mixdown decks sound pretty dang good. As long as you go with half-track quarter inch or half inch, at 15 or 30 ips, and use +9 tape on a such calibrated machine, and you're levels are hot enough when you mix down, you're good to go.

NR is an option to further enhance the quality of a master recording, and Dolby is the pro-grade stuff.

One of the best sounding Dolby NR's out there is Dolby SR, but it's also the most complex one, and it requires several different test tones at the beginning of tapes to make sure that the SR is consistent through different decks. THey usually come in a rack-unit, w/ 2 cards in it, for L and R.

That's all I know about that.

-callie-

 

[cjacek]

still looking at mixdown decks and I noticed most of them do not have dolby. is this because hiss is not an issue? or are you expected to get outboard NR? what do you all use?

I'm sorry but I'm not familiar with the way you record and your expectations for the final product. For example, if you record with cassettes then obviously your "mixdown" deck or method is going to be vastly different than if you record to "semi-pro" or "pro" open reel. Tell us more.

To answer your question, tape hiss (noise) can be very subjective as each person reacts differently to it and it would be correct to say that certain decks don't need noise reduction as much as others ... It perhaps would be better and more accurately stated that every deck, depending on the electronics, track width, tape speed, type of tape etc ... will vary to some degree on tape hiss.

~Daniel

 

[cjacek]

As long as you go with half-track quarter inch or half inch, at 15 or 30 ips, and use +9 tape on a such calibrated machine, and you're levels are hot enough when you mix down, you're good to go.

I'd hate to disagree with my fellow analog recordist but this is just plain overkill and, dare I say, wouldn't apply to a majority of situations.

One of the best sounding Dolby NR's out there is Dolby SR, but it's also the most complex one, and it requires several different test tones at the beginning of tapes to make sure that the SR is consistent through different decks. THey usually come in a rack-unit, w/ 2 cards in it, for L and R.

While I agree with Doby SR being great (the best many would say), why give such expensive and "overkill" options, when you can obtain fantastic and quiet mixdown results, and for far cheaper and easier, using a TASCAM 22-2 or TASCAM 32-2 + Quantegy 407 or 456 ? No NR needed.

My 2 cents ....

Daniel

 

[Beck]

still looking at mixdown decks and I noticed most of them do not have dolby. is this because hiss is not an issue? or are you expected to get outboard NR? what do you all use?

Yeah, some people choose to use outboard NR and some don't -- depends on the type of music being recorded. Integrated NR on half-tracks never caught on. It's an issue, but there are so many types of NR and everyone has something they prefer. The general thinking for open reel is to not add a feature and expense the buyer might not want.

 

[FALKEN]

I am recording dirty ass rock music, but I still want it to be professional. I am looking at the MX 50 II N , MX 5050 B II , PR99, A77, plus some tube models, like a roberts. I really like the AKAI GX decks, but I want something that is qtr inch half track, so those are out i think. Not sure about the tube models though. I would probably have to bring the deck to my amp guy at some point. heh. But I would really like to find something already refurbed. Suggestions on the above models would be nice.

 

[jpmorris]

I am recording dirty ass rock music, but I still want it to be professional. I am looking at the MX 50 II N , MX 5050 B II , PR99, A77, plus some tube models, like a roberts. I really like the AKAI GX decks, but I want something that is qtr inch half track, so those are out i think. Not sure about the tube models though. I would probably have to bring the deck to my amp guy at some point. heh. But I would really like to find something already refurbed. Suggestions on the above models would be nice.

Unless you're doing lo-fi, you will want a 15ips deck. Most consumer decks are 7.5ips!

I don't know about the Otaris, but they are supposed to be very good. I think Channel 4 News in the UK does (or perhaps did) use them. Parts are supposed to be expensive and hard to obtain though. Apparently Otari is still selling them, but I have no idea what the list price is since I can't find a retailer.

The Revox PR99 is also much-loved as a mixdown machine but be very careful. There are a lot of those that have been messed about with. ASC did this a lot, and some of their modded machines are playback-only which you do not want!
The high-speed version of the B77 is also quite popular. Make sure it IS the high-speed version, and make sure that it is 2-track. Most B77s (and A77s) are low-speed, many are 4-track (stereo not multitrack). There are also some high-speed 4-tracks, so make sure you know what you're getting first. The high-speed A77 is sometimes called the HS77.

I don't think there are any high-speed AKAIs.

For valve decks, you're going to be a bit restricted. The ferrographs are popular and plentiful but are consumer machines, so only 7.5ips.
You'll probably be looking for a Studer of some kind. The last semi-pro valve revox was the G36. There are high-speed versions of this but they aren't common. It was replaced by the A77. Occasionally you get C37s turning up on ebay. These are supposed to be fantastic and they certainly look the part but weigh more than a cooker and cost big bucks.

Other valve decks include the BTR machines which the Beatles supposedly recorded on, and I once saw an old Philips professional machine on ebay. Nice looking machine, but again drastically heavy.

If you're looking for cheap, cheerful and portable you probably want a Tascam.
I use the model 32, which is a straightforward 2-track recorder. It does the job and only weighs 35kg so it can be hefted around unlike the C37 which takes two or three men to lift.
It has some irritating design problems including the tension arm system which is made of string, a demented rewind system where it overshoots zero and has to wind forwards to compensate, poor tape pack and suspended heads (I want them fixed down!).

I'd like to replace mine with a BR20 which is Tascam's replacement design. It's microprocessor controlled, the heads are fixed down and can't lose alignment (or be adjusted either, but I'd prefer that personally). The machines will tend to be newer than the model 32. Apparently they were discontinued around January so you're likely to find new ones. The list price was almost three thousand pounds, though.
Used ones turn up on e-bay sporadically, usually when I can't afford to buy one.

 

[FALKEN]

It has some irritating design problems including the tension arm system which is made of string, a demented rewind system where it overshoots zero and has to wind forwards to compensate, poor tape pack and suspended heads (I want them fixed down!).

this is the 32?

 

[arjoll]

For valve decks, you're going to be a bit restricted. The ferrographs are popular and plentiful but are consumer machines, so only 7.5ips.

The Ferrographs were highly regarded as semi-pro machines, and many series came with three versions - the standard with 3.75/7.5ips, low speed 1.875/3.75ips and high speed 7.5/15ips. The non-standard ones might be a lot harder to find though. I think the series 4 onwards had stereo options.

George West's Ferrograph site is a good source of info on these machines.

Cya
Andrew

 

[cjacek]

I feel that High Fidelity begins at 7 1/2 ips but 15 ips is more industry standard when it comes to mastering.

7 1/2 ips is definitely NOT low fidelity tho.

~Daniel

 

[Beck]

I use the model 32... It has some irritating design problems including the tension arm system which is made of string, a demented rewind system where it overshoots zero and has to wind forwards to compensate, poor tape pack and suspended heads (I want them fixed down!).

There is a string and spring on the left tension arm that serves as a flutter damper. It’s the same kind of string you find in radio tuners. It’s a simple but effective design. They have the same setup on the 22-2. The string dampens high frequency flutter that would get through the metal spring alone. It also works to smooth out a tape packed sloppily, or “out-of-round.” I don’t see the string on consumer models like the X-3. But anything ¼” that’s running at 15 ips in the 20 and 30 series has it. The 40 and 50 series, and the BR-20 have servo controlled everything, so no string.

The 32 is a great machine, as is the 22-2. You really get a lot for the money.

-Tim

 

[jpmorris]

There is a string and spring on the left tension arm that serves as a flutter damper. It?s the same kind of string you find in radio tuners. It?s a simple but effective design. They have the same setup on the 22-2. The string dampens high frequency flutter that would get through the metal spring alone. It also works to smooth out a tape packed sloppily, or ?out-of-round.?
The 32 is a great machine, as is the 22-2. You really get a lot for the money.
-Tim

Great. Now does anyone know how to repair the (undocumented) string mechanism when it breaks? ;-)

There is a small drum which the string wraps around, but this doesn't actually make sense since the drum doesn't rotate and there's too much friction on the string for it to move. So what is it for?

 

[jpmorris]

I feel that High Fidelity begins at 7 1/2 ips but 15 ips is more industry standard when it comes to mastering.

7 1/2 ips is definitely NOT low fidelity tho.

~Daniel

Yes, I'll admit this statement was based more on lore than actual experience.

 

[FALKEN]

ahhhh! ive been hijacked!!!


heh.....whatever....at least im getting some posts.



i dont really want a 32 btw.

I was looking at revoxs and otaris.

specifically I was wondering which was considered better the II N or the BII? and was the A77 any decent? I am not from that era u know. and also does nobody like the tube sound? are the tubes only for mic pres and I would be creating unnecessary aggravation?

Although I am surprised that nobody likes the 7.5 4-track Akais and Teacs. they look very stunning, a lot of people sell them mint or refurbed, and for cheap.

 

[jpmorris]

I was looking at revoxs and otaris.
Specifically I was wondering which was considered better the II N or the BII?
And was the A77 any decent? I am not from that era u know.

I'm not strictly from that era either. But I've spent (and still spend) a huge amount of time looking at decks on e-bay and researching them, so I figured I may as well share some of what I've learned.

People do use the high-speed A77 for mixdown. How good it sounds I don't know.
But I can tell you that there is a guy on ebay in the UK who is refurbishing them.
Recently he was selling a high-speed A77. I was interested but the price shot up very quickly.

And also does nobody like the tube sound? are the tubes only for mic pres and I would be creating unnecessary aggravation?

The problem is that the deck designers stopped making them before the semi-pro market existed. Therefore, with a few exceptions like the high-speed G36, virtually all the mastering-quality decks are solid-state. A lot of valve decks are mono, as well.

If you must have valves, try to get a Ferrograph 632 (I think).. it is a stereo series 6 machine. 7.5ips, of course but highly-regarded as a semi-pro recorder.

Another related deck is the Vortexion, which appears to have been designed by aliens. The stereo version has a valve amplifier on each side of the machine so you can only do a stereo level check if your eyes are attached to stalks. The machine uses the same Wright-and-Weare mechanism as the Ferrographs.

Although I am surprised that nobody likes the 7.5 4-track Akais and Teacs. they look very stunning, a lot of people sell them mint or refurbed, and for cheap.

The Akais are nice. They just aren't mastering decks. You should really be looking at Tascam instead of Teac, since Tascam is the pro end and Teac is the consumer end.
(Just in case you didn't know!)

The other problem with these decks (including the Tascam 22 and the Ferrographs) is that they only take up to 7" reels instead of the 10.5" spools. If you don't need 10.5" spools that's fine, just watch out if you do

The Revoxes, Tascam 32, BR-20, and Otaris will all take 10.5" spools.

 

[Muckelroy]

welp

I'd hate to disagree with my fellow analog recordist but this is just plain overkill and, dare I say, wouldn't apply to a majority of situations.



While I agree with Doby SR being great (the best many would say), why give such expensive and "overkill" options, when you can obtain fantastic and quiet mixdown results, and for far cheaper and easier, using a TASCAM 22-2 or TASCAM 32-2 + Quantegy 407 or 456 ? No NR needed.

My 2 cents ....

Daniel

I realize that, I just didn't know how "pro" this person wanted to go. For what this guy's doing, yes, a semi-pro deck like the 32 or 22-2 would be great.

As far as gold records are concerned, well, you get my point. 1/2" half-track decks just have a lot more breath and life, and low end presence to the sound than 1/4" half-track decks do.

Although I may never own a 1/2 inch half-track in my life, I can dream, can't I? food for thought.

-callie-

 

[Beck]

The other problem with these decks (including the Tascam 22 and the Ferrographs) is that they only take up to 7" reels instead of the 10.5" spools.

Not necessarily a problem though JP, just a difference. I chose the 22-2 over the 32 on purpose for its compact size and because I didn’t need 10.5” reels. At 15 ips, 24 minutes per 1800 on 7” is still more than I need. I was looking at the 32, the Fostex 20 and a used Otari MX5050 at the time.

You don’t pay for bells and whistles with the 22-2, but that’s the beauty of it. It’s uncomplicated, easy to maintain and specs out sound wise like the 32 and better than the Fostex.

One thing about some of the larger more expensive options out there, including the MX5050 and the BR-20, is that they are loaded with features for every imaginable use, from mastering to broadcasting. Just something to think about for those who are shopping.