Mixdown advice

  • Thread starter Thread starter riccol
  • Start date Start date
R

riccol

New member
Can anyone direct me to a source where I can better understand the mixdown process to CD. (Web site or a past thread)

I'm using n-track and really loving it but want to learn more about how to get the best results in the mixdown -- Not the actual mixing EQing Ect. (I given myself 20 years for that)

Really don't comprendo what happens when you record at 24bit and what happens going back to 16 to burn the CD. (As I learn more I will as less ambigious questions.)

I'm using n-track and have read in the forum where some use other programs for their final mix -- Why?
 
i think its ok to mixdown in N-Track, but keep it 24 bit....then take that 24 bit file and use another program for dithering.......

dithering is what its called when you take it from 24bit to 16bit and where all hell can break loose.....for a real technical explaination of dithering go here and click on dither
http://www.digido.com/
 
People might use other programs like Wavelab to work with the final mix (e.g. "mastering"), but it would be silly to mix in one application and then mixdown in another...because the sound you get while mixing is the sound you want in the final mixdown of course! The mixdown file will sound just like playing the project in the multitracker...and if it doesn't something is seriously wrong.

On an aside, I like to check the dither box in n-Track preferences. (dithering will occur as n-Track has to down sample from its internal resolution, 32bit, back to 24 or 16bit)

Slackmaster 2000
 
what IS dither?

should i always keep that checked in my N-Track?
 
ah ha.

ah.

but when i mixdown with N-Track, I always have set the "mixdown rate" (bits) to 16...so i guess i have no problem here correct? also, i record in 16...so why am i even posting here? ha.
 
n-Track's internal resolution is 32bit. I believe that if you check the dither box it will use dither when converting from 32bit back to your hardware's working bit depth.

Slackmaster 2000
 
At the risk of being controversial, there is a school of thought that says that recording at anything other than 16 bit if you are then exporting to CD is a waste of time AND introduces noise.

Dithering means adding a small amount of noise into the 24bit signal at just about the theoretical noise floor of the 16 bit signal. This enables you to hear low level sounds in the 16-bit track. Without dithering, the conversion to 16 bit will lose a great deal of the low level sounds.

It is this addition of noise that causes the arguement as to whether or not to record at 16 bit in the first place.

Typically, 24 bit resolution gives a theretical 144db signal to noise ratio (6db per bit), so a 16 bit conversion has 96 db s2nr, same as a CD or DAT player. This is a measure of the the difference between the loadest and quietest output.

But in reality, 144 db isn't achievable whereas a 16 bit signal will typically produce a dynamic range of upto 115 db s2n ratio! Confused? Well welcome to the club.

A DIGITAL sound system that has been correctly designed should reproduce sounds up to half its sampling rate. As the human ear can ascertain sounds upto just over 20khz, sampling takes place at twice that rate. Thats why the most common sample rates are 44k1 (CD standard) and 48k. So all this talk in the music world of moving to a 96k sampling rate is very interesting:)

There are very experienced guys on these forums who swear they can tell the difference between a 24/16 bit recording and a 16/16 track bit recording. I remain to be convinced.

Maybe this was a bit more detail than folk wanted but hey, its good to know the theories sometimes, just to be aware of the issues in play.
 
please dont take this personally.....

that theory sucks.......
 
No. That school of thought has very few students.

For one thing you are confusing signal-to-noise with theoretical dynamic range. At 16bit, you have a maximum mathematical dynamic range of -96db (e.g. amplitude doubles every 6db and 6*16=96), but if the source passed through 16bit converters, then you're going to have a least one bit's worth of noise, possibly two, which leaves you in the -84-90db range in terms of S:N. The usable range of a 24bit system might be down to 110-120db.

Also consider that as you go down the db scale, you're using fewer and fewer bits to represent your variations in amplitude. In our perfect theoretical world, -90 to -96db in a 16bit system is represented by one bit (e.g. two voltage levels). In a 24bit system, -90 to -96db would be represented by 2^8 - 2^7 = 128 voltage levels.

Now let's consider mathematical precision. You will not find a digital 16bit digital processor that processes internally at 16bit, even if it inputs & outputs at 16bit. Take the following example:

Let's work on a simple positive floating point scale of 0 to +1.0, and let's say that our input audio stream has a precision of 0.1 (e.g. one tenth). That means that the input audio stream will consist of samples from the set {0 , 0.1, ... , 0.9, 1.0}. Not very great of course, but it's easier to work with simple numbers.

Now let's say that we have a simple "fader" routine that changes the level of the input by multiplying by some user selectable value. Let's say the user has adjusted the "fader" such that the incoming stream will be multiplied by 0.3.

Taking into consideration only ONE sample, of say 0.5, we do our multiplication:

0.5 * 0.3 = 0.15

Now since we're working with an accuracy of only 0.1, the actual value arrived at by the "fader" will not be 0.15, but 0.1 (assuming truncation).

Now let's say that we pass that output (0.1) into another "fader" that has been set to 2.0:

0.1 * 2.0 = 0.2

Ok, that's all fine and dandy. But is 0.2 really what we want that sample to be? Let's say that our "faders" do internal processing with an accuracy of 0.01 and that "faders" are connected using a signal chain with the same accurace, and run that one more time:

0.5 * 0.3 = 0.15
0.15 * 2 = 0.3

Hmm, very interesting. So even though we started off with a sample that is only accurate to 0.1, using higher precision mathematics to process that sample resulted in a BETTER answer!

Now that's all from a processing standpoint, but consider what happens when we increase the *real usable accuracy* of the input samples, and then process those samples at even higher accuracy. The result is simply more precise mathematics that will produce more accurately rounded or truncated samples when they are converted to their end bit depth. Without going through another boring example, it should be obvious enough.

Now on the topic of rounding and truncating, we come across the word dither. Yes, dither is certainly the addition of noise to a signal, but it's GOOD noise that results in an image that more closely represents the original than a truncation or rounding process. Consider the following sample stream:

0.15, 0.15, 0.15, 0.15, 0.15, 0.15

Not too exciting, but let's say we want to take the accuracy down to 0.1. If we truncate we end up with:

0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1, 0.1

...and if we round we end up with

0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2, 0.2

...but if we dither (using a simple method) we might get:

0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 0.2, 0.1, 0.2

...which more closely or pleasantly approximates the orignal samples than rounding or truncation.

In the most extreme cases, dithering will literally sound like noise. In the usual case, however, dither will simply produce a better sound...not a noisier sound in the traditional sense.

And when we consider that in even a good 16bit system you're going to have about 1 bit's worth of noise (the bad kind of noise), using dither to go from 24bit (an analog source sampled with 24bit converters) to 16bit will actually produce a BETTER 16bit file!


All that said, it is possible to have a 16bit system that sounds better than a 24bit system. This is the real world we're talking about here. However, a properly designed 24bit system will produce better results than a properly designed 16bit system. Starting off with 24bits of precision (albeit lower in the real world) will result in a greater amount of acheivable detail when you start doing DSP, AND you'll carry out the detail because you're dithering down to 24bits instead of 16bits for your final output stream which means that continued processing can be done with less loss of resolution.

Holy shit it's really late, and I'm very much just rambling. I hope this makes sense because I don't have the time to go up and read what I just puked up.

Slackmaster 2000
 
Great response Slackmaster, with the help of an engineer friend of mine who lectures at University, he took me through the finer detail of your maths and of the whole subject matter. Bottom line....you are dead right! What was worrying me was the word "noise". It would be better off called " useful gain" cos that what it really is.

I haven't tried it out yet, I have a soundblaster Live! which records at 24 bit but only plays back at 16 bit. But from what you are saying (and I agree, the maths do seem to support the arguement), I should be able to hear the difference?

At the start of my post, I did say that there was a school of thought....I didn't say it was my own belief, so there was no need for me to take the rejection of that theory as personal, Gidge. The facts are that I am still learning through all of this and don't have the experience to say one way or another, but what I am interested in is finding out why I should record @24 bit only to play back/record to CD at a lower number.

So I've got the theory thanks to Slackmaster, now I need to try it out in paractice.Thanks again for the post. I'll post back when I've done the hearing test!
 
I u.s.e.d to think recording music was fun.:D I think I just heard several self inflicted gun shots across this board.






Thanks for the clarification Slack. I will try and put this out of my mind when recording and continue flying on instruments 'til the weather clears.:D


Bighand[:D]
 
Back
Top