Mix MIDI & Audio?

[Editor]

The other thread is dead so ...

... is it possible to mixdown MIDI tracks and audio tracks to a WAV file?

(I am trying to do this in Cubase SX but all I get in the WAV file is the audio tracks)

It was suggested to me in another thread that it might be necessary to feed the output of my audio program back into the sound card for this to happen, I guess since MIDI tracks are only data?

 

[TimOBrien]

You will always need to render your MIDI tracks at some point to an audio file (if you ever want to output to an audio CD or MP3).

Then you can mix down all the audio tracks to a final .wav file and then burn to a CD or convert it to an MP3.

http://www.tweakheadz.com/how_to_get_started_with_midi.html

 

[Editor]

You will always need to render your MIDI tracks at some point to an audio file (if you ever want to output to an audio CD or MP3).

Yes, I understand that but I thought it was possible to render a MIDI track to a WAV file INSIDE Cubase or other applications.

For example ... I have 3 standard audio tracks and 2 MIDI tracks that I would like to mixdown as a final product (WAV file). Are you saying that I have to convert the MIDI tracks to WAV outside the mastering program (Cubase), import them back in and then perform the mixdown?

 

[Halion]

What do you send the midi files to? I'm guessing the Windows Midi Emulation thing? This is what is producing the sound, not the midi track. Therefor, you can't mixdown a midi track, since there is no sound in there. You need to use a VST to mixdown a midi track this way, although logically, you *should* be able to mix down the midi emulation output aswell, but I haven't never done this.

 

[Editor]

What do you send the midi files to? I'm guessing the Windows Midi Emulation thing?

This is where I get lost. Yes, I've tried the MS MIDI Mapper and the 2 synths (emulated) associated with my sound card. All 3 produce sounds when the mix is played but do not transfer to the rendered mixdown file.

You need to use a VST to mixdown a midi track this way, although logically, you *should* be able to mix down the midi emulation output aswell, but I haven't never done this.

I have been reading as much as I can about VSTi -- VST instruments -- but still haven't quite wrapped my head around it. Right now, when I open the VSTi Setup dialogue in Cubase, I see only 2 available instruments ... a drum machine & a bass guitar thing. I think I can add something in this area but I'm not sure what. Should it be one of the soundcard synth emulators?

 

[altitude909]

.. is it possible to mixdown MIDI tracks and audio tracks to a WAV file?

Yes, but they have to have their own audio track.

The problem you are having is the SW synth that is included with your soundcard has its own mixer so when it receives midi data, it is automatically mixed into the soundcards output, you hear it, but it is added after the audio driver so its not really "playing" through the software. Think of it as a separate synth not connected to the soundcard. If you wanted to export audio, you would need to route the SW synths audio output (which is the main output, so this wont work) back into an input channel on the soundcard and then do the audio mixdown in realtime.

The advantage of VSTi is that when you route midi data to the instrument, that instrument has both a midi input (the midi track) and an audio output track is created automatically under VST instruments

 

[Editor]

The advantage of VSTi is that when you route midi data to the instrument, that instrument has both a midi input (the midi track) and an audio output track is created automatically under VST instruments

OK I think I'm starting to understand but as I said, all I seem to have available as VSTi 's are the drum map & a bass type of thing.

I don't have a physical synth -- just a controller keyboard and the Audigy 2 ZS card with its onboard synth (emulators?). Is it possible to convert all this into something where I can mix MIDI and audio? Can I add a VSTi somehow?

I have been using Soundfonts & softsynths successfully but it seems to me that MIDI has some good possibilities as well.

Thanks in advance for all your patience. I'm a guitar player -- you know how THEY are when it comes to keys

 

[AlChuck]

The problem you are having is the SW synth that is included with your soundcard has its own mixer so when it receives midi data, it is automatically mixed into the soundcards output, you hear it, but it is added after the audio driver so its not really "playing" through the software. Think of it as a separate synth not connected to the soundcard. If you wanted to export audio, you would need to route the SW synths audio output (which is the main output, so this wont work) back into an input channel on the soundcard and then do the audio mixdown in realtime.

I don't think this is quite correct. The soundcard is rendering all the audio ultimately -- the softsynth's output is digital audio too, not analog and blended in to the audio outputs "after" or separate from the soundcard's audio data stream. The soundcard should have a mixer control (often the standard Windows Volume control) that allows you to add the synth's output to the soundcard's recording input. (The SoundBlaster-style cards often have an all-or-nothing setting called "What U Hear" that sends everything coming in the inputs or routed to the outputs to the recording input stream.)

That's the way I've always done it using my SoundBlaster Live card as a synth. I set up a track to record, and I route the MIDI synth's output alone into the recording stream. After making sure I have the metronome disabled, I hit record. No matter what else might be on other audio tracks, only the output of the MIDI synth gets routed to the track that I'm recording. At the end, I have a track (or tracks) of the audio that the synth played, I mute the MIDI tracks, and then I can mix.

 

[Riverdog]

Summation

All this adds up to Editor - is that you must ultimately record in real-time the MIDI track to audio... Whether it's done inside your program or outside using an external device and a mixer, you must record the sound to an audio track in order to perform a full audio mixdown...

In my studio, I have a lot of outboard gear... MIDI was a great tool in the 80's to help give you better sonic quality on lesser gear because it's technically only recorded 'once'... All of my volume settings and controls on my MIDI gear are automated at mixdown... The only thing that is actual audio tracks are 'analog' instruments like guitar, vocal, etc... If I'm using a MIDI instrument, I believe (And this is OLD school thinking) that you get better quality only having to record these items once...

Clearly that was the case years ago when you were recording to tape or reel to reel... Nowadays sonic quality has improved so much that it really doesn't make much difference which way you do it... Many people like to record the MIDI tracks to audio because they feel they get better control of the audio doing it this way... You can use your internal effects from your audio program or elsewhere to sweeten the sound...

Hope this helps...

 

[Editor]

All this adds up to Editor - is that you must ultimately record in real-time the MIDI track to audio... Whether it's done inside your program or outside using an external device and a mixer, you must record the sound to an audio track in order to perform a full audio mixdown...

Yeah, I understand ... that's what I'm trying to do. I also understand your 'old school' references My last experiences with multi-tracking involved a Fostex 4-track machine (I'm a video editor by trade & an R & B guitar player at night). I think what I've done here is applied 'old school' thinking to 'new school' programs & stumbled on something that I thought was regularly done but isn't, if you follow my meaning.

Not that I'm a big Fruity Loops fan (it makes a lot of things easier & faster to get back to the music creation) but when I came across that particular program, I immediately ignored all the RAP & LOOPING benefits & used it to lay down drum, key and horn tracks. Once that was done, I would import into CuBase for adding guitar lines. That worked fine, as long as I was using soundfont based instruments & samples <--- took a while to wrap my head around those ... but when I picked up an M-Audio MIDI Controller keyboard, I thought I'd try out MIDI ( I kinda like a couple of the sounds I discovered)

I've managed to export MIDI to a WAV file in Cubase but that's not where I created the original hook for a particular ditty. The Fruity Loops manual says I can't export 'MIDI data' to a WAV file. "No problem" I thought because I just wanted to pull an AUDIO file into Cubase. Turns out that NO SOUND exports from MIDI tracks. I tried exporting a MIDI file & also a WAV file ... no big deal
... and I have found other utilities that will convert MIDI to WAV but I think there must be an easier way.

The main reason I want to solve this problem is because I have been exploring soundfont possibilities (found some dynamite B3 fonts!) and this is MIDI based, as far as Cubase is concerned.

I think the answer is in MIDI routing and/or creating a VSTi that will play the MIDI data in CuBase exported from Fruity Loops (or pulling the Fostex out of the closet

Hope this helps...

Hey! I grew up on Hendrix ... all feedback is good

 

[ssscientist]

The Fruity Loops manual says I can't export 'MIDI data' to a WAV file.

Have you actually tried to render a midi instrument alongside some wav files in FL? I was quite successful a few minutes ago, and can't imagine which version you've got that doesn't allow this simple process. I've been an FL user since Windows 98 was brand new --- '97 I think it was --- and I use it much the same way as you do.

The procedure I followed was to set up a drum part the way I wanted it. Then add one of the virtual instruments (they aren't in the VSTi format but they're softsynts none the less) and play it to my taste. Then go to the 'file' menu, select 'export', name the file and make sure you're putting in a known place, then hit 'save'. A 'Rendering to (file name)' screen will pop up and if all the settings are the way you want them just hit 'Start'. And, as I've seen it spelled on this very board, 'wha-lah'. You've got what you've been asking about.

There is also a Fruity Loops VSTi which you might consider using in Cubase. If you didn't get it with whatever package you bought, you probably should upgrade here. From what I see in the feature chart everything but the smallest package offers what I'm talking about...

As far as Cubase goes, the above procedure with some slight modifications of nomenclature should bring you pleasing results. One of the purposes of Virtual Studio Technology instruments (VSTi's) was to do exactly what you've been wrestling with --- blend midi instruments with acoustic and electric instruments into a seamless song.


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[Riverdog]

Wondering...

ssscientist...
Will Logic do this the same way using the internal VST Instruments?
As I undedrstand it the only way to do this with external instruments is to "play/record" the audio in through your sound interface right?

I experimented briefly with the "soft mixdown" function or whatever they call it as well but haven't gotten that deep into it... I'm sure my recording style is archaic to say the least... Just want to get more from my system and hopefully move into a more efficient style of audio production...

Thanks for the info...

 

[altitude909]

Will Logic do this the same way using the internal VST Instruments?

I would assume so, I know for a fact that Cubase does soft mixdown.

You only need to do a realtime mixdown when you have external effects/synths or a mix of hardware and software

 

[ssscientist]

I would assume so, I know for a fact that Cubase does soft mixdown. You only need to do a realtime mixdown when you have external effects/synths or a mix of hardware and software

I second that.

Just play around with it --- there's no penalty for using up a little hard drive space in experiments and soon you'll wind up with a finished aiff or wav file.



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[Editor]

Have you actually tried to render a midi instrument alongside some wav files in FL? ... The procedure I followed was to set up a drum part the way I wanted it. Then add one of the virtual instruments (they aren't in the VSTi format but they're softsynts none the less) ...

Yes, I have successfully done what you describe (exporting samples, soft synths & other FL virtual instruments in a mix) but my trouble started when I added a channel called 'MIDI Out'. I thought (perhaps mistakenly?) that this was the only way to access the resident soundfonts associated with my SB Audigy card. (The soundfont player that came with FL 3.4 is a demo only version so I managed to install a third-party player that doesn't seem to find the installed soundfonts.)

Are soundfonts MIDI?

MIDI is data and the files are smaller -- that much I know. I suspect that MIDI generated sounds/files are cleaner/better than samples <--- is that true?

I also suspected that the soft synths & FL instruments might be MIDI based but they appear as other audio channels do (look the same in piano roll, etc.). The MIDI Out channel definitely looks different.

I have worked around my problems by using samples, etc. (afterall, I'm not composing a masterpiece or scoring a movie but I would still like to know more.

There is also a Fruity Loops VSTi which you might consider using in Cubase.

Unfortunately, not an option ... property tax payment due ... mortgage ,,, you know, the 'usual Yes, I do remember reading somewhere in the Cubase manual about using FL as a VSTi but I didn't understand how that worked. I think I am beginning to get the idea now.

One of the purposes of Virtual Studio Technology instruments (VSTi's) was to do exactly what you've been wrestling with --- blend midi instruments with acoustic and electric instruments into a seamless song.

As I suspected Now all that remains is the 'HOW'

 

[ssscientist]

but my trouble started when I added a channel called 'MIDI Out'.

'Midi out' is a channel in FL that is reserved for external synths - not soundcards, but actual synths or samplers or drum machine or synth modules that need to be accessed thru a midi out port.

Soundfonts are midi voices, yes. Download a free Soundfont player here.

As far as softsynths (I assume that's what you mean by 'midi') being cleaner or better than samples, that's something that's completely dependent on your computer configuration. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link and the same is true in any audio setup. Also, 24 bit samples sound dramatically better than 16 bit in some cases, and in other cases you'd be hard pressed to hear the difference.

Try this --- download these three free softsynths, make a little song out of them using Cubase and see what happens when you try rendering it to a wav file. First, a monosynth that's good for basslines and lead lines here. Then, a floaty 2-voice pad synth here and third a drum synth VSTi here.

If you're not sure how to load VSTi's into Cubase read your manual, and with your recent insights into how midi works I think you'll make progress this time.


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[Editor]

'Midi out' is a channel in FL that is reserved for external synths - not soundcards,

OK, that clears THAT up -- thanks So, it looks like I don't need to use the MIDI Out channel. Fine by me. My main interest lies with soundfonts and samples anyway.

I would still like to make use of the Audigy's onboard capabilty to handle soundfonts. My current understanding leads me to believe that I could take some of the load off my CPU if I made use of this feature.

Soundfonts are midi voices, yes. Download a free Soundfont player URL=http://www.rgcaudio.com/sfz.htm]here[/URL].

Yup, that's the one I have been using but I haven't been able to access the stored soundfonts on my Audigy 2 using this player. I also have the Vienna Soundfont program which I would like to use to manage my preferences. Still reading up on how to do that.

As far as softsynths (I assume that's what you mean by 'midi') being cleaner or better than samples,...

No, not really. I was just asking, in other words, if a sampled/soft synth/soundfont Grand Piano is worse (takes more CPU time) than a pure MIDI Grand Piano. For my purposes & ear, I don't think I would know the difference butI am concerned about CPU time.

Try this --- download these three free softsynths,...

Thanks for the suggestion & the links ... I manage Cubase OK but I find that I compose better in FL 3.4. To make a long thread short; I think my problems would be solved if you (or anyone) could explain how I can access the soundfonts stored on my Creative Audigy 2 ZS using the RGC Audio Sounfont player or another similar (free) program.

P.S. Thanks for the intelligent replies ssscientist Are U a real scientist or just a Thomas Dolby fan?

 

[ssscientist]

P.S. Thanks for the intelligent replies ssscientist Are U a real scientist or just a Thomas Dolby fan?

Niether.

A soundcard with soundfonts has it's own operating system in the same sense that a VST Soundfont player does. You can't mix one with the other.

Asking which midi piano is better/cleaner/less taxing on computer resources is like asking if the black horse runs faster than the brown horse. It depends on many things, and if you stick with this midi stuff just a few more months you'll probably figure out that it has to do with things like bitrate and quality of individual samples and the CPU-friendly or -unfriendliness of the VSTi producing the piano sound.

Those VSTi that I linked you to in my last post work with Fruity Loops too, but not with 3.4. I suggest that you go to the FL Studio web site and see if you are eligible for a free upgrade. I'm not quite sure when they started that, but it's worth a look. You can keep FL 3.4 on your computer too...


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