Mix lacking brightness

  • Thread starter Thread starter Kasey
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Hey Kasey cool song,
I read an interview with Roger Nichols recently and he addressed this very problem. He stated in the article that because most of the mic's we use to record with these days are so bright that they actually end up cancelling out the highs on each other during mixing. He the stated that he always boost's about 2-3db in the 10khz range on most the tracks in his recordings to accomodate this. Since reading the article I have tried it myself and found that it works very well.
However I feel you have more problems than just that. The yamaha MG boards are, to be perfectly honest, Terrible for recording. They were intended to be for garage bands or small P.A. systems, there is an extreme amount of talkback between the channels on those boards. We used to sell them where I work, but after a few unhappy customers brought them back complaining of this issue, I tested them and found out that the customers were very much right about them. Since then we have stopped carrying them all together. I think yamaha is a great company and love alot of their gear, but the fact is that like yourself many people mis-qualify their purchases. I talked to yamaha about this and they confirmed my thoughts that the MG boards are NOT intended for recording.

As for pre-amps:
The RNP is a pretty cool pre
The Presonus eureka is an excellent mic pre for under $500
The Mindprint Envoice would probably be the best pre for you (it has a 12ax7 tube in it so it tends to be very airy in the respect to the highs)
You should also actually try out a Grace 101 before you pass on it, I personally feel that is the most incredible sounding pre-amp for under $600 in the world.

Hope this helps, and remember the golden rule "try EVERYTHING" but always have fun.
 
Hollowdan said:
He stated in the article that because most of the mic's we use to record with these days are so bright that they actually end up cancelling out the highs on each other during mixing.
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That's pretty amazing logic.

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Hollowdan said:
However I feel you have more problems than just that. The yamaha MG boards are, to be perfectly honest, Terrible for recording. They were intended to be for garage bands or small P.A. systems, there is an extreme amount of talkback between the channels on those boards. We used to sell them where I work, but after a few unhappy customers brought them back complaining of this issue, I tested them and found out that the customers were very much right about them. Since then we have stopped carrying them all together. I think yamaha is a great company and love alot of their gear, but the fact is that like yourself many people mis-qualify their purchases. I talked to yamaha about this and they confirmed my thoughts that the MG boards are NOT intended for recording.
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is there another similarily priced board you'd suggest over the MG? Feature and functionality-wise, i love the board. I never thought that the board would be the issue. or are we talking about just the pres in the board?
thank you for the help
 
Hollowdan said:
I read an interview with Roger Nichols recently and he addressed this very problem. He stated in the article that because most of the mic's we use to record with these days are so bright that they actually end up cancelling out the highs on each other during mixing.
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That Roger, he funny guy.

I guess he's talking about the high end of the mics masking each other out, or maybe his age is catching up with him and the new mics don't sound as bright because he's losing high end.

Back in my day we didn't use these newfangled mics ...
 
masteringhouse said:
That Roger, he funny guy.
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Yeah, first he buys Elemental Audio, hikes the prices of their plugs 250%, and still make you buy an iLok, and now this. He's on a real howl of a roll :rolleyes: :) .

G.
 
any suggestion of a different board if the MG is the problem? or should i only worry about getting different pres. this is about the pres of the board, right? otherwise how does a board work better for recording over live mixing? is it basically just the quality of the pres?
 
It's probably a mix of technique, the room and the equipment. Sounds vague, but every little bit counts. How much effort would you say you put into mic placement? If you're moving mics around much, try it. A few inches makes a world of difference on every instrument. What soundcard are you using?
 
soundcraft? mackie? i need 16 channels. or do i just need to buy a good preamp? i beleive that i have some issues with acoustics and maybe in some situations mic placement but i know there is an issue with something else in the chain. what makes the mg boards bad for recording?
 
they suck pretty bad overall but you could get by with just a pre. I still think if you used condensers and really focused on placing them in order to capture brightness you would be fine. most album sounds are brighter than the instruments really are...its just a matter of placement.
 
i'm telling you, i really am spending a lot of time on mic placement. its not getting me anywhere. i can get better and worse sounds, but rarely can i get it bright like i think it should be. it doesnt seem to matter where i place the mic...
 
I would suggest breaking down the chain to see where the issue is.
First off use a condenser mic if you're going for bright. Audio Technica mics are a good mic that come to mind as being on the bright side, but certainly not the only mic. Use a short mic cable and plug into a mic pre of your choice then directly to the recorder bypassing the board. If you do not have a dedicated mic pre, you can often use the insert on the board or a direct out to bypass many of the components. Lastly plug into the board.

See if any of the above are making the sound dull, if not check your snake.
 
Kasey said:
any suggestion of a different board if the MG is the problem? or should i only worry about getting different pres. this is about the pres of the board, right? otherwise how does a board work better for recording over live mixing? is it basically just the quality of the pres?
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Yeah Kasey, if I were you I would just worry about getting some nice stand alone mic pre's. The mixing board is redundant these days because we do most of the mixing inside the box. I plan on getting away from the mixing board all together in my studio. The big studio I work in we still use a 32x8 mackie but that is on it's way out, we just got the Mackie control universal with 2 extenders and a C4. It is so much better just using a control surface and doing all the mixing inside the box. I am sure as soon as we have enough outboard mic pre's we will get rid of the Mackie and be done with mixer's. Most the studios here in town are doing the same thing. They all either have alot of outboard pre's or a control surface with built in pre's (ala. tascam fw-1884) I would recommend just getting some inexpensive but decent mic pre's and getting rid of the yamaha, maybe presonus tube pre, presonus blue tube DP, presonus eureka, mindprint trio, mindprint envoice, joe meek, phonic t8100, etc. OF course it's just my personal opinion but stay away from ART, Behringer, and DBX's cheaper pre's. Hope this helps.
 
Kasey said:
soundcraft? mackie? i need 16 channels. or do i just need to buy a good preamp? i beleive that i have some issues with acoustics and maybe in some situations mic placement but i know there is an issue with something else in the chain. what makes the mg boards bad for recording?
Click to expand...

The MG boards cause "crosstalk" which means that the channels blend and you can hear say channel 4 on channel 12 and so on. This means that the channels actually phase each other out before they even get to the recorder. What are you using to get into the computer? How are you getting 16 channels into your computer? and are you even using a computer?
 
ok, i'll let you guys in on a secret i just learned from a seasoned veteran. if guitar is in the mix, try close micing the strings ( electric guitar) with no amp on or anything and then blending that track into the mix. this works really well with clean guitar and it did wonders to the song we tried it on. it brings a lot of attack and high end definition too so have fun
 
i'm recording to adat. and then mixing with the board down onto two tracks to the computer. my soundcard is a mobile fast track pro by m-audio. i dont want to get rid of working with mixers - i like mixing with actual mixers. i already have a tube pre and its...okay... for a few things. usually i use it on anything that i DI. and nothing else. i might get the envoice or the rnp. and if the mg boards might be a part of the problem, i might get a new board. soundcraft? mackie?
 
how many channels you want? How about trying a Onyx? The Spirit M series are ok too.

BTW your monitors could be deceiving you, plus do you have any acoustical treatment in there?
 
i had this same problem when doing some home recording on my computer. I would mess with the mic placement all day long, but my guitars still sounded bassy,dark, and muddy.

3 things helped me dramaticly......................

1- upgraded my soundcard from a soundblaster, to a M-audio delta 66.
2- upgraded my junky behringer analog mixer, to a decent Soundtracs (UK made) mixer with better mic pres. this was a huge improvement!
3- use EQ ! for guitars ill always start with this as a general rule, and tweak from there..........roll off (shelving) below 100hz, cut mids by 4 db around 400hz witha Q setting of 1.4-1.5, boost 3.5-4 k about 1 db with a Q of 1.4.

that right there will brighten your guitars, and it will help it so it wont fight with the kick drum, bass guitar and other instruments so it will have its own separation.
 
i am listening to one of your tracks at the moment.. i like :)
It sounds like your acoustic guitar has old dead strings, which is okay if your going for that sound but buying light gauge brinze strings will really lighten up your sound, then micing at the 12th fret always gives me a bright sound
 
Kasey said:
i'm recording to adat. and then mixing with the board down onto two tracks to the computer. my soundcard is a mobile fast track pro by m-audio. i dont want to get rid of working with mixers - i like mixing with actual mixers.
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Interesting. I know at first I was saying it was a tracking issue, but it also looks to me like you might be testing the limits of your gear. If you're not willing to simplify your audio path, then you basically need to upgrade everything.

Nothing wrong with cheaper gear, just so long as you don't ask a whole lot of it. Like keep the audio tracks down to first generation if you're using cheaper digital. Don't track ADAT, then run it out to your cheap mixer, and then back in to your cheapo sound card, and expect everything to sound as detailed as a first-generation track on a nicer setup.

If you want things to sound better, and you can't use first-generation audio ... then you're really in a difficult situation. It's time to plunk out some dough not only for a better mixer, but you're going to need much better converters than what's on your ADAT and your sound card. As for mic pres, yea get something that's at least not part of a live karaoke mixer, and you'll be in better shape.
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