mix down recorder

[Lo-Fi Mike]

This might be a stupid question but i need an answer to it

here is my set up:

I record all my tracks through the board into the a/d converters, Do all my editing in the box(computer). Then i pull 32 tracks through the d/a converters back into the board, Where i do all my mixing, compressing, and effecting. Then I have my final stereo mix comming out of the board.

my question is:

What is the best way to transport my Analog mix to a Mastering House?

I though about a masterlink, but i dont want my mix to go back to digital untill the mastering house preformes it's final step.
I looked into a 2 track reel to reel but i found one in a magazine for
5,000 (wow, maybe one day)
I was thinking about a high quality cassette recorder(700-800$) or maybe a hi-fi vcr.

like i said this might seam like a stupid question, but i'm just clawing my way out of the computer as much as possible, so i'm kinda new to the Analog world.

thank you for all your help

 

[Dr ZEE]

This might be a stupid question, but...
what's 'mastering house'?

I know what's 'steak house' is. I know what's 'deep house' is... I even know what 'empty house with lights on' is. ... but have no clue about mastering one...

********
half track (two track stereo on 1/4" tape at 15ips) is a great way to mixdown/master, imo. I'd keep it in my own house, thou...
You can obtain a used unit capable of such job for somewhat $100-500 (all depends on various spontaneous factors mixed with luck). The "problem" is (or may be) that we deal here with used/old discontinued equipment, and so you have to face maintaining and/or maybe fixing. It's not as bad yet as may become in a few years ahead though...

transfering your mix (or master mix) to digital format and "architecturing" your CD does not take a "house" (imo) .. you just need a computer and a software (or all-in-one unit). You, of course, may want to take "advantage" of a/d converter that you don't have, and that they've got in their "house" and told you that it has "advantages to be taken" in it... not for free, of course. You also may want to take advantage of "expertise", "experience" and "golden ear", that they told you they've got in their house, but chances are, that the mold under the persian rug in their "house" has more real bone to it, than their ghosty "expertise" and "gold in the ear". As for "experience" - it IS there, no questions... they sure do know how to treat and bill you right.

/respects

 

[arjoll]

I looked into a 2 track reel to reel but i found one in a magazine for 5,000 (wow, maybe one day)

You should be able to get a good 1/4" 2 track for a lot less than that - the Tascam BR20 was less than that new!

I have a Tascam 32 last year which cost the equivalent of about US$65 in great condition and recently serviced, but that was a very good deal through some broadcasting contacts. From what I've seen around you should be able to get a machine in good condition for around US$200 or so. Look for the newest one you can afford - a low mileage Tascam BR20 or recent Otari (not familiar with their model numbers) would be ideal.

Also watch shipping or go for a local deal, from what I've read here US shipping companies appear to be basically incompetent! (Packing jobs that I know would be fine through the likes of Courierpost or NZ Couriers seem to be completely destroyed by US carriers....)

 

[Beck]

A good 1/4" half-track is hard to beat. Look for a TASCAM 32 or 22-2, as well as the BR20 and 42.

I like the small, light machines myself, like the 22-2 or Fostex Model 20. Since they are lighter and of simpler design they’re more likely to get through the postal system in one piece and be less costly to get them up to speed and maintain.

Most importantly, find out what formats the mastering house accepts. The better ones should still accept ¼” 2-track, but some don’t. The older more established operations can work with whatever you’ve got -- ¼”, ½”, beta hi-fi, DAT, or CD.

Mastering houses are springing up everywhere, so choose wisely.

~Tim

 

[MCI2424]

This might be a stupid question, but...
what's 'mastering house'?

I know what's 'steak house' is. I know what's 'deep house' is... I even know what 'empty house with lights on' is. ... but have no clue about mastering one...

********
half track (two track stereo on 1/4" tape at 15ips) is a great way to mixdown/master, imo. I'd keep it in my own house, thou...
You can obtain a used unit capable of such job for somewhat $100-500 (all depends on various spontaneous factors mixed with luck). The "problem" is (or may be) that we deal here with used/old discontinued equipment, and so you have to face maintaining and/or maybe fixing. It's not as bad yet as may become in a few years ahead though...

transfering your mix (or master mix) to digital format and "architecturing" your CD does not take a "house" (imo) .. you just need a computer and a software (or all-in-one unit). You, of course, may want to take "advantage" of a/d converter that you don't have, and that they've got in their "house" and told you that it has "advantages to be taken" in it... not for free, of course. You also may want to take advantage of "expertise", "experience" and "golden ear", that they told you they've got in their house, but chances are, that the mold under the persian rug in their "house" has more real bone to it, than their ghosty "expertise" and "gold in the ear". As for "experience" - it IS there, no questions... they sure do know how to treat and bill you right.

/respects

Professional mastering is an art form and uses very precise equipment that costs more than your house. If this guy wants pro mastering to release a commercial recording, he needs a mastering house to do the job. Home mastering is just a hack job as no one has the equipment to do it right or the designed rooms to listen, or the years of experience...........so on.


You can belive what you want, but you would be wrong forever.

 

[Herm]

You might as well just go ahead and put your mix back in the computer and burn 24 bit 48 k disc of your stuff and send it in.
I really dont think you are going to gain anything buy mixing down to something else.
The damage of the digital world has already been done to your work.
And like Beck mentioned be very carefull who you choose to master your stuff there are alot of hacks out there that nothing more than some kid with a computer program that thinks they can master.
I learned this lesson on the last album I did. It was not a pretty sight. Or should I say sound?

 

[BRDTS]

A lot of ME's I use no longer have tape. I know five or six who have half inch 2 track. I only know a couple who have quarter inch 2 track machines for transferring into the workstations.

There are so many Sonic and Sadie systems out there in the mastering rooms, that a lot of the guys prefer a direct digital copy to start with rather than having to do a conversion (if they have tape) on a machine that has to be re-tweaked for something similar to whatever tape recorder you used for mixing (which will bring in additional time and charges for you as the ME attempts to rebias their tape machine for what you send them). I notice that they guys who still have tape for conversions into the workstations are the most high-priced guys (Katz etc). You have to weigh all this.

Best bet is to narrow down 6 or 12 mastering places you're interested in using and then call them for their preferred delivery media. A lot of mastering here in L.A is via ftp 24 bit wav at 96k although they also take 24 bit at 44.1 or 48k. They also take them this way as data on dvd.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Professional mastering is an art form ...

Yes it is. Business is 'an art-form' from a certain point of view.... no doubt about that.

Professional mastering .. uses very precise equipment that costs more than your house. .

Some professionals in the business of 'mastering' do. That's the fact.
Some people pay for their hair cut more than my 10yo VW can gain on the open market. That's the fact too.

If this guy wants pro mastering to release a commercial recording, he needs a mastering house to do the job.

He needs it if his need is to satisfy his wish in the case where mastering in the "mastering house" is what he wants. In any other situations he does not need it.

Home mastering is just a hack job ..

only in the case when the person who does the mastering is a hacker.

..no one has the equipment to do it right ..

You can belive what you want...

no one has .. designed rooms to listen..

You can belive what you want...

... no one has the years of experience..

You can belive what you want...

... ...........so on...

You can belive what you want... ....and you'll be right forever in your mind.
The fact is: in reality your mind does not cover the entire reality, but rather is only a tiny fragment of it, however it may replace (or, say - substitute) the reality for you. That happens rather commonly in the reality.
**********

p.s. a very side note: That "pill" does not work. And it's my solemn duty and obligation to the human race to respond.

 

[MCI2424]

Yes it is. Business is 'an art-form' from a certain point of view.... no doubt about that.


Some professionals in the business of 'mastering' do. That's the fact.
Some people pay for their hair cut more than my 10yo VW can gain on the open market. That's the fact too.


He needs it if his need is to satisfy his wish in the case where mastering in the "mastering house" is what he wants. In any other situations he does not need it.


only in the case when the person who does the mastering is a hacker.


You can belive what you want...


You can belive what you want...


You can belive what you want...

You can belive what you want... ....and you'll be right forever in your mind.
The fact is: in reality your mind does not cover the entire reality, but rather is only a tiny fragment of it, however it may replace (or, say - substitute) the reality for you. That happens rather commonly in the reality.
**********

p.s. a very side note: That "pill" does not work. And it's my solemn duty and obligation to the human race to respond.

I really wish you would just go away. Too many people here come for real help and having a retard like you with your great advice just keeps the newbies hoping that they can record a #1 hit with $100 mics and master with some $100 software. You have written some really stupid things but here you really nailed how much you don't know.

 

[Treeline]

Call longtime HR member Bruce Valeriani at Blue Bear Sound and he will have some clear ideas for you.

 

[Dr ZEE]

You have written some really stupid things but here you really nailed how much you don't know.

My writings are not based on my knowlege nor on my ignorance, my writings are based on my sense of duty

Too many people here come for real help and having a retard like you with your great advice just keeps the newbies hoping that they can record a #1 hit with $100 mics and master with some $100 software.

Here are two more lines from a retard like me to all the "newbies":
1. Making a great recording has very little to do if anything at all with prices of recording equipment.
2. Making a #1 Hit out of any recording has absolutely nothing to do with recording. It is a completely separate and unrelated matter.

I really wish you would just go away.

I understand. And You are not alone. Without retards like me your life would be smooth, secure and sucking-sweet.

 

[littlesongs]

although i am analog as heck, i have to agree that your best mixdown option -- if you are going to do it yourself -- is in the box... all a tape machine will do for you at that point of the game is add noise... what little "tape compression" or romantic whatever you might get will be negated by your brand new floor o' hiss... if it were something specialized, like western or bluegrass... or a big band... or something utterly traditional... and it was being mixed down to nos tape on a tube ampex... perhaps... but most modern genres that begin in the box should stay in the box... it's alot easier to put all the flavor on the front end...

imho, mastering is worth every penny... i would dig through your favorite current bands and performers and read the jackets, sleeves and cases... look for those that share similar sonic flavors to your own music... then see what they have in common... often a producer will be something they share... less well known is the fact that mastering is also a loyal member of the chain... note a few of the labels and try to get in touch with them and see who they use...

most independent labels have a particular fellow or lady who does most of their work, so whatever you are playing there are reasonably priced specialists available... obviously the punk band has different needs than the jazz trio, but they both require a clear, concise and complete final master that maximizes all the potential, makes one last stab at the warts and is handled by a person with skill, dedication and patience... if you really want to get a record released, it doesn't hurt to have it mastered by the person who does the in house work for the label you want to flirt the most with... even if they aren't interested, you still have something that sounds good...

most major labels either have a sausage machine approach to make everything sound "radio friendly" and "optimized for broadcast" or whatever the term is this year... or... they farm it out to everybody's flavor of the month... either way, they manage to carve more soul-less garbage into gold... remember, the crappier the performer and material, the more expensive it is to produce... over three decades have passed and emitt rhodes is still more enjoyable than the bay city rollers... this is not a coincidence... you have alot of options and not all of them include palatial estates with rows of star trek blinky lights and bubbly on ice...

what happens at a mastering house is quite similar to a steak house or a pancake house... you come in with a need and they take care of you... and if they suck... you tell your friends... and they go out of business...

dave

 

[Dr ZEE]

what happens at a mastering house is quite similar to a steak house or a pancake house... you come in with a need and they take care of you...

No, Dave. You come to a steak house or a pancake house not because of your 'need', but because you don't want to cook and do the dishes. Some go there to see and talk to others, who don't want to cook and do the dishes.
When you have the need - you hunt and you cook or even eat it fresh as is

..if they suck... you tell your friends... and they go out of business...

They don't go out of business. You tell your friends that they suck and then you do it again, and again, and again ... untill you have no more friends in the business, while they are still in the business
That's what happens ...
/respects

 

[littlesongs]

i respectfully disagree that all hacks in the trade are protected on all sides by an unbreachable wall of malarkey and moats of alligators... aimless folks who are dabblers with money or filled with blind ambition or merely guided by opportunistic business sense don't always last in the business... yes, many do... phil spector was one of them and look how well that turned out... still, to dump all the babies out with the bathwater is silly... just because jim o'rourke or stereolab can sustain careers based on trust funds, plagarism and indie elitism doesn't mean all modern sounds have to be that way... do whatever you want to do... john darnielle got famous doing records on a boombox, but even he jumped at the chance to record in a studio...

walter sear has spent a lifetime watching the industry rise and fall, seeing the cream rise to the top and the turds float away... he is not a ten-thumbed hack and his dedication to his studio and the craft has been lifelong... is he expensive? yes, he is... and for all the grumpy chatter of golden ears and paying too much, not one of us would be disappointed with his work as an engineer... or the late bill putnam... or chuck britz... or roy halee... or a hundred others... these men gained decades of experience recording great music, not by ruining other folks' precious babies... the aes is not some sort of mafia... in many ways it is just a nerds club full of old timers who happen to know more than the rest of us ever will about analog recording... we owe much of our pleasure to their pain...

my current project recorded our first release back in 1997 on a $35 four-track ... did it mean using alot of hand-me-down equipment and getting really creative with sounds? certainly it did... were we happy that it was well recieved? heck yes... but it didn't fool me into thinking that we couldn't have done any better with better resources... without a doubt, we could have... when the ego is set aside and a clear head prevails, most folks still like the idea of other folks adding their wisdom and experience to the pot... after all, the beatles are a bunch of snot nosed slackers without a square geek who ran a music store and an equally square engineer who made his way cutting comedy records... teamwork is essential to all aspects of recording... we may feel like god between the cans, but the truth is, many of us are better off taking off the headphones and getting input... imho...

so, to return to the original question... you should get it mastered... and... if it is to be released on lp, do not use the same mastering job you used for the compact disc... either have them make a separate master specifically for vinyl or find a specialist who can... you will be much happier... of course, all of these wonderful frontiers are more easily explored when a label is throwing checks at invoices, but even when they aren't... they are worth exploring...

please forgive my tangent... good luck and tell us how it goes!

 

[Track Rat]

I think I'd have to side with Dr Zee on this one.

 

[Dr ZEE]

Dave (littlesongs),
this is all good what you are saying... BUT! there's something missing - the main target is missing.
Here's what I mean. The basic assumption (as I see it) is, that here we all are in the "driver's seat" (in respect to music recording/production...) and we are the drivers by choice. This is "recordists community"... or is it not?
So, what is it, that you want to do? Do want to make music or do you want to keep re-reading (or re-writing) the Ode To a Few Good Men

these men gained decades of experience recording great music

..Good for them. Shall I add: "Who cares?" ... and I don't mean to disrespect or dis-whatever these men. What I mean is, that what they have achieved and what they are capable of doing and what their resources are - all this IS totally irrelevant to your situation, if you have chosen to make music (record and produce).
Mastering is a part of music production and actually it can be the most exciting part of it (well, it depends). Sure, you can choose not to do it. But let me try to explain what does it mean to you as music recordist/producer:
If you do not want to master because of somebody somewhere has more/better experience and resources, then!!!!....
.... why would you mix? Somebody somewhere has more/better experience and resources for mixing too.
then.... why would you record? Somebody somewhere has more/better experience and resources for recording too.
then.... why would you play guitar? Somebody somewhere has more/better experience and better guitars and talent (but of course ) for playing too.
then.... why would you write a song? Somebody somewhere has more/better imagination for writing too.
then.... why would you even get up this morning? Somebody somewhere has better life than you...
... because somebody somewhere got BETTER ATTITUDE for life. And that's why that 'somebody' has got better imagination and better guitar and resources and experience and what have you.

...old timers who happen to know more than the rest of us ever will about analog recording...

...that's a real bad attitude. that's all.

...... we owe much of our pleasure to their pain

well, maybe you do. I don't owe them no sh*t. And this is not just my attitude - that's actually the fact.

you should get it mastered...

Yes you should. And you can choose from either doing it or paying somebody to do it for you.
You can choose whether you want to be on stage or in the audience.
And, an individual, who tells you, that you should be in the audience and leave the stage for "those men who can and got this and that", deserves no respect.
And if you have decided to get on stage, then get RIGHT attitude and play it like you mean it, damn it !

/respects

 

[littlesongs]

as usual, the cool guy in the mustang doesn't remember the centuries spent on horseback... yet, without pioneers, there are no trails to follow... and... whether we feel a bit godlike being behind that mixing desk, or not, we are, by the very nature of technology, followers... all of us...

if you are satisfied that you are the greatest, then there is no reason to share what you create... you have no need to develop, ask questions or even be in this forum... most of the rest of us devour records, ask questions, study, try, fail and try again...

i am not satisfied with grinning in the mirror and saying, "hell yeah" and feeling omnipotent... i like feedback, i carefully consider suggestions and i respect all who came before me... it's called "ohm's law" because it isn't merely a suggestion... somebody proved it was true... and if i am still excited by studios that have been long since bulldozed by short-sighted people, forgive my exuberance... i know i am supposed to be jaded and bored by it all... but i love music... every aspect of it... i have recorded in warehouses, dingy basements and $350 a day wonderlands of audio... there are marked differences to be sure, but, in the end, it's all about the song...

to return to the actual topic of mastering... ask around... one thing the good doctor and i completely agree on is knowing who you are dealing with... if you only trust yourself, then go for it... if you think you might benefit from someone with an excellent track record, reasonable rates and clients who are happy, there's no reason to hesistate in seeking them out and getting the job done to your satisfaction...

finally, dr. zee, i respect your diy aesthetic and your skepticism... and... while i don't always agree with everyone in this forum, i enjoy reading what you and all the other folks have to say... as a contributor to the discussion, i would hope that i have been helpful or at least amusing to the gathered tribe... sometimes, there really isn't a right or wrong way and we are all entitled to our opinions... it would do the world good to simply admit that there are as many points of view as there are people...

 

[Dr ZEE]

Dave, when somebody gets out of the bed in the morning and makes a step it does not mean that he feels godlike in his bedroom slippers nor by doing so he disrespects the rest of waking up creatures on that side of the planet.
**********
When a person tells another person: "You should saty where you are and let the other ones move.", - he/she speaks not on the base of wisdom, but rather on the base of marking the territory instinct.

And then there are wolves and there are tigers, and then, - there is a hyena, who looks like a dog but rather is related to a cat, who actually can hunt well, but has found the better way. A hyena would tell the wolf: "Hey, you "big Guy", You should not hunt here, because the Tiger hunts here and kills the bigger cow. Be like us, just hang around and wait for the Tiger to finish his meal, and you get what you need."
********
/best regards

 

[FALKEN]

dude,

it all comes down to time. really. I've taken the diy approach and I can say that it is time consuming. its difficult to write, arrange, play, record, mix, and master your own music, much less perform it live as well. then throw in actually booking the shows, making flyers, artwork or the album, flyering up and down town, building your website, sending out to radio stations, etc. etc. etc......oh did I forget practicing???

what's most important is that you accomplish what you set out to do. very few people can do it all and many of us try to do it all and fail by that alone.

Anywayz you don't need equipment that costs more than your house to master a CD. that's retarded. maybe it made sense in the 70's or something.

I would, however, agree that you do need equipment that costs more than your house if you want to master a wide variety of music day in and day out and be able to do it consistently well. I mean, shit. When you send your album off to one of these guys in the back of tape op, they spend like, maybe 8 hours on it. Now, I've done a very good job of mastering my own punk rock with a dbx and a graphic eq. could I do it for a wide variety of clients day in and day out and get the same kind of results in less than a day? Fuck no! I can't even master my own music in 8 hours!! It takes days or weeks even and several attempts and tapes and burns and listening hours.

you guys aren't even comparing the same thing.

 

[SteveMac]

I agree with Falken. It's a ton of work just recording yourself. If I have a choice I would have someone else mix AND master it. I would never say that you couldn't do it yourself though. When I'm recording I always angle to have the recording as close to mixed when it's tracked, even sometimes tracking with effects. I don't like mixing or even trying to imagine what'll be like when it's mixed.