miking acoustic guitar and voice

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dobro

dobro

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Here's something I'm struggling with - maybe somebody with more experience knows *if* there's an answer.

I'm miking nylon-string acoustic and voice at the same time (Rode NT-1 and AKG C-1000). I've tried two approaches:

1 Stereo miking. Both mics about equidistant from voice and guitar soundhole. I sing between the mics, and I like the sound. No phase problems - good. But I don't get the best possible sound from the guitar - it sounds a bit distant and muffled.

2 Putting the AKG on the guitar primarily, and the Rode on voice. I can find the sweet spot for the guitar mic, and get the best possible sound from it. However, I get slight phase problems. This is because the mics are at different distances from the sound sources, right? If I engage the 'phase reverse' on one of the preamps, it just makes the sound effected, way too much high end, and weird.

Okay, I know real engineers can mic a guy playing and singing at the same time. How do they do it? Have *you* done it?

Sorry, I don't want to overdub.
 
Remember the 3-1 rule: Make sure the mics are at least three times as far apart as they are to the sound source. That should keep you relatively safe from phase issues.

Also, realize that the mics have directional characteristics. Both mics should have included paperwork showing the available polar patterns. Reading the graph, think of 0 as the front of the mic, and 180 behind the mic. A mic isn't a sound suction device. Air vibrates and in turn causes the mic's diaphram to move. The capsule can keep sound from affecting the diaphram from certain directions depending on it's design. That graph gives you a decent rough idea about the mic's directional sensitivity. I try to picture the area around the mic that it's pattern describes, and how the source of the sound is going to project. It's weird at first, but it's kinda starting to make more sense to me. You can place the mics at certain angles to get more sound seperation even if you can't move 'em too much farther apart. It all depends on how you're positioned when you sing and play. I hope this ramble was helpful.
 
Hey Dobro - make a shield between you and the guitar -how can I explain it - get a piece of fibreboard and wrap some thick cloth around it and attach it to two mike stands so you can set it up horizontally between your voice and the guitar - around chest height. This will stop the spill between the two mikes. you have to really know your guitar part cos its not easy to look around the screen to see your guitar but believe me!! it does work!!! It works really well for folk singers who can't overdub.
 
I mean to hit reply but clicked on post new topic instead. Look under my thread entitled "might want to check this out".
 
I've gotten something from all this input - mic direction, baffles, and real pictures of mic placement. One of the things this has convinced me of, considering what you've said and what I've already tried, is that this isn't a straightforward problem to solve. I doubt there's a simpler answer than what I've tried and what you've suggested.

Everybody else is up against multi-track recording and editing, with major EQ challenges and guys like smart apple and emeric to match, and all I've got to do is manage live to two. Well, everybody's got to be somewhere.
 
well i think im going to be up against the same problem this weekend , or better yet i hope i wont .. This is a kind of folk singer ive to record , kind of like jewel .. am i really going to have problems if she cant overdub??
cheers all , this thread helped ...
spider
 
Uh, i got a rode nti and an akg 1000 too. I'm a big fella so i point the rode up at me, the akg down at the resonator cone on the guitar, and an sm58 at the lower soundhole to get the bass.
I play a loud! tri-cone steel guitar or a dobro and the voice doesn't come in much on the akg. The rode picks up a lot of the guitar but it really sounds better that way to me. Can't overdub anything though and i guess it woundn't work if you were under 6 feet tall.
 
Dobro,
I've been trying to solve this problem ever since I purchased my AT4033 for vocals! Up until recently, I've just been trying hard to get a decent mix w/ guitar bleed all over the vocal tracks...
I recently purchased a Great River pre (I spent my tax refund and almost all my savings bonds that my parents have been saving for me!) and now I can actually use my SM58 for decent recorded vocals...And the best part is practically NO guitar bleed. Last night I did a quick test of a new setup to my PC (directly mixed to stereo) and it was the best sounding guitar/vocals I've done yet!

Vocals - Shure SM58 a few inches in front of my mouth -> Into my Great River (MP2 Unbalanced)

Guitar - A Taylor 710 mic'd with a Neumann KM184 about 1.5 feet in front of the 13th fret. Only problem is I pick up the sound of my room quite a bit, but I'm hoping I can eq some of that out. This afternoon I'm going to try this w/ my multitrack, get a decent mix, and then post an mp3.

So, I am now going to look into SM58-type mics designed for recording...With an excellent pre you can get a great vocal sound, and not have much bleed from the guitar track...

Good luck dobro!

-Evan
 
I want to thank all of you for responding to this - I've got things to try out now. By the way, I'm not at all worried about spill (or bleed) - I like it actually. I'm not trying to get the track separation typical of a lot of recording (I don't need it), plus I *like* the sound of voice through two mics, guitar through two mics - it sounds better to me. My problem is that I'm tracking both voice and guitar through two mics simultaneously, inviting phase problems. One thought I've had is to try John Sayer's idea about the baffle (separating the sound) and then use two mics on voice, two on guitar. But that's so cumbersome - there must be a simpler way. I think what I'm trying to do is impossible - mic voice and guitar simultaneously and still observe the 3 to 1 rule. But I'll let you know how things turn out, if things turn out interesting.
 
me and my friend recorded a live 2 acoustic guitars 2 vocals demo for ourselves like this. we used 2 NT1s ROTF, the guitars sound amazing and the voice comes in perfect. the had the 2 NT1s about 5~6 feet infront of us in the middle of our two chairs. it gave great stereo reproduction or both voice and guitar but no isolation, it sound slike you are there in the room watching live. im sure that would work for one guitarist and one vocal as well.

later.kz
 
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