Mike Recording Rots

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mark4man

mark4man

MoonMix Studios
Why is it so damn difficult to record with microphones in the digital domain? No matter which type I use, I either have insufficient gain or mike distortion.

When recording vocals remotely (using a Fostex VF-16 HD Recorder); & regardless of whether or not I am utilizing phantom power, I follow the cardinal rule (Slider at 0 dB, remaining adjustments made w/ preamp); & still...the signal is insufficient in gain. Of course when I increase the preamp gain, the overall gain seems to increase in ratio, until I have distortion in the signal (mike distortion, not clipping.)

When recording in studio, utilizing a PreSonus BlueTube, it's better, but marginally.

What the h _ _ l is going on? Are my mikes shot? Do all preamps suck if their cost is less than $1,000? Is it a problem specific to digital, or specific to impedance?

Please help.

Thanks in advance,

mark4man
 
Mark,

Sounds like you've got a gain stage issue between the preamp and the recorder input. Are you running a low impedance signal into a high impedance input, or the other way around? Make sure your innies and outies are matched.
 
If you're using the preamps in the fostex ( mics direct in ) you are most likely dealing with a Very Sorry Preamp (VSP) out of which you will never get a decent signal. I use a Blue Tube and don't have the trouble you're describing unless I overdrive the BTube. (Recording into a digital Korg D8) I generally never have to set the gain on the BT over a half way to max - on some inputs, like my keyboard, I set gain to about a quarter-way up. If you are using the tube drive pretty far up along with the gain, you are most likely overdriving the BT. I run the output of my BT through a reverb unit and set the input levels according to the level meter on the reverb. And it doesnt' take a whole lot of gain from the BT to clip the reverb meters. The Blue Tube is not the greatest of amps but there should be no issue with its output unless it's defective. For your remote recording, you would probably do well to get a small outboard preamp like an audio buddy, ART MP, or the new little Behringer job to carry along with you. With an external preamp, you should be able to adjust each stage to get a strong clean signal. I don't think the fact that your recorder is digital has that much to do with it. Maybe some?
 
One more note: be sure to use cables that can handle the balanced ouptut and input signals. XLR or TRS ends. It does make a difference.
 
kid klash & StevenLindsey,

Thanks for the response,

Sounds like you've got a gain stage issue between the preamp and the recorder input.

Gain staging within a single device? This is possible? I am recording directly onto the hard disc in the Fostex. The inputs & preamp stages are within the device.

Are you running a low impedance signal into a high impedance input, or the other way around? Make sure your innies and outies are matched.

No & Yes. Impedance is matched.

If you're using the preamps in the fostex ( mics direct in ) you are most likely dealing with a VSP, out of which you will never get a decent signal. I use a Blue Tube and don't have the trouble you're describing unless I overdrive the BTube.

I do have better control with the BlueTube. With both units, though...it seems like, as I adjust the gain...it's not loud enough, not loud enough, not loud enough...& then, too loud. The BlueTube only has direct preamp gain, as opposed to the Fostex deck (on which I set the input fader to unity; & adjust the pre from there.)

Thanks,

mark4man
 
It sounds like you're getting transients that peak your input. You may want to look into getting some sort of compressor/limiter, like an RNC.
 
cominginsecond,

The Fostex has a "Compression Channel", but it doesn't seem to work too effectively. I intend to try some different settings with that.

Thanks,

mark4man
 
Re: cominginsecond,

mark4man said:
The Fostex has a "Compression Channel", but it doesn't seem to work too effectively. I intend to try some different settings with that.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the Fostex, but my Tascamm 788 has built-in compression which is done in the digital domain. Meaning it can't be used to limit the input signal before A/D conversion...something like that would require an external compressor.

Like I said, I don't know about the Fostex, but it may be set up the same way...something to consider.

HTH,

Lee
 
Mic issues with Fostex VF-16

mark4man,

I have been using the Fostex VF-16 for several years and I have not had the issue you are facing. The only thing that caught my eye, was you mentioned adjusting the input fader for your mic gain. Maybe this was a misnomer and my point is moot. But just in case I will share my 2 cents. The input gain is not adjusted by any of the faders on the VF-16. The faders only adjust the monitor volume. The trim knobs on the top of the unit adjust the input gain. I generally have these set to 0-1 max when using a mic-pre. I have been using an APHEX 107 and 2 Focusrite Trakmasters with great success using this setup. I keep the trim knobs on the unit very low as to not re-amp the pre-amp. On channels 7/15 & 8/16 you can effectively use the inserts and thus bypass the Fostex's pre's alltogether. I hope this helps. Good luck.


Cheers,
Daniel
www.meetgoodwin.com
 
Dan!

Holy Shit...

Thanks a heap, man!

You know, they say the first thing that goes is the memory (there I was at Woodstock...it was the last day...Hendrix was jammin'. He says: "we're just jammin...y'all can leave if you want. I stayed.)

Earth to Mark...Faders on a deck control output!

Actually, that had no effect on the original vocal recordings I spoke of. But your comments jarred the brain; & I pulled out the unit, went over everything; & found the problem!

It was phantom power, as applied to my AKG C 535 EB (set incorrectly.) What happened was, we were recording "whisper" type background vocals for an R & B ballad, which means eating the mike to sing softly & get adequate gain...& I didn't have the mike set to Bass Rolloff. I just now reproduced the same setup I used; & it's not really distortion per say, or clipping. It's rather a real harsh tone...sounding way too fat; & like it's about to break up. And the same characteristics were there...sounding like the signal is not loud enough as the pre is adjusted upward; & then...too loud.

Now I'm happy.

A couple of other things, tho, I'd like to discuss with you on the VF-16 (if you don't mind.)

1) You mentioned using the Inserts to bypass the pre's. Tried that...got absolutely no signal at all.

2) You mentioned a preamp (trim) setting of 0-1 max as sounding clean, but then went on to say that you keep the trim knobs low, so as not to "re-amp the pre-amp". You lost me on that one.

3) Lee mentioned compression on his Tascam as being limited to post input processing. Is that the same case with the VF-16?

4) Tell you the truth, I'm not that thrilled with phantom power on the VF-16, although, it could very well be the mike, since the AKG is the only condenser mike I've ever used with the unit. How is phantom power on yours, with your mikes?

Again, thanks very much.

BTW - Lee: Thanks also!

mark4man
 
I'm happy you are feeling better about life. Many of us who use digital recorders of the all-inclusive variety use external preamps to feed a better signal to the hard drive, as much as possible bypassing the cruddy preamps in the recorder. Are they cruddy? You betcha, and their A-D conversion is questionable as well. A box that does everything can't do it all well.
When you send your signal at line level to the recorder. then increase gain at the board, you are "re-amping" the signal. I assure you the input gain knobs on my Roland VS1824CD have cobwebs on them from not having been turned up from 0, ever.
I confess, I don't understand your bass rolloff issue. I don't generally roll off bass or use any filters at all on vox. Also minimal or no compression. I don't know how engaging a high pass filter is going to increase your output. Finally, do good preamps cost $1000? Sadly, yes, if they aren't *really* good ones, then they're quite a but more.-Richie
 
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