Midi Drums sound cheap

XCalibur

New member
Hey all,
I'm using Sonar with an Echo Gina and SBLive. I use the SBLive for the "midi" drums. Echo for the Guitar/bass/vocals.

My problems is that the drums sound like crap! They have a "hollow" kind of sound to them - very "not real". Have a listen at


What else can use to play these drums besides the SBLive? This is the area where me brain fades out <grin>. Is there a better card? Some setting or something I'm missing here?
 
I quickly discovered there is this thing about "memory" ..and alot of the sf's that just downloaded are'nt gonna play on the SBLive 'cause it doesn't have the memory to do it. Hmmmm....
 
SBLive uses your system's memory. You can specify how much the card can use in the SountFont Dialog box from your audio "control panel". This setting specifies the maximum memory -- it will actually only use enough to load the soundFont(s). You can set this slider to your system's max memory and loading a 512kb SoundFont will only use 512kb etc.
 
robbmiller's right. The AWE cards had proprietary memory boards on them, but the Live cards use system RAM.

One correction, though: I think the SB Live also limits the amount of system RAM you can devote to it to 1/2 of the total available. So if you have 256 MB you can only set it as high as 128 MB.
 
get a decent drums soundfonts,acctualy,in my humble opinion drums and bass are the only close to "real life" instruments on any of SB soundfonts series,...also check the amount of reverb your using,if its the case...
10 years ago i had a Alesis SR-16,lots of pro did works with them(GREG HOWE as an exemple....) it was ok but,now i wouldnt trade it for what i have with a simple drums soundfonts i´d get for free in Net.Period!
GOOD LUCK!
 
Greg Howe eh? Ripper for sure.

Anyways - yes I did (duh) finally stumble into the memory cache setting for the Soundfonts on SBLive. It was set at 12mb, no wonder I couldn't load more than 2 at a time.

And Yes ...much improved drum sound.

BUT! I have a new "conundrum". Today I had the pleasure to meet with a fellow who's just opened up a professional studio in town. Nice setup. I was describing to him that my drums and sometimes the entire mix comes out like its in "a can" or something. He asked me if sounded like "flange" ...I said yes, he then said that I'm OUT OF PHASE somewhere.

Sheeesh ... So, this is how I record.

Directly into the 1/2 of my echoGina card - that makes one stereo track. I do this for bass, guitar because they "live" types.

Then, for each track, I have it assigned to a specific output on the gina card (has 8 outputs). These outputs go into my mixing board. The output of the mixing board is sent into the 1/2 recording of the Echo Gina card.

Echo has a feature to "block" looping-feedback by disabling the "play back" on the 1/2 while it records.

Thats it basically - at that point I would trim the ends of the final track and "normalize" it.

So I don't get where I can even develope an "out of phase" issue. But I do understand what he is talking about.

Anyone get it?
 
Drums sound like crap???

Here's a post a did a while ago, that may be of some help.

“Real” Drums
This may or may not be news, or useful but here goes. I know a lot of you guys have got this covered, but some won’t, so hence the step by step approach. I do not consider myself to be all knowing on this one and the mere mention of the word “midi” has me running for garlic and a crucifix, the reason I write this is because I just wish someone had told me this a long time ago and saved me the time and frustration of sussing it out for myself.

I use Cakewalk Pro 9 and the SoundBlaster Audigy
(any SB card will do, it’s the Soundfonts you need)
Take one midi drum pattern that loosely fits the style your looking for. (Import or open into track view). Then cut, dice and splice to make a complete drum track, adjusting tempo where needed. So now you have the drum track sorted but it sounds like shit because its playing GM drums which would not convince a five year old.
Now, how to make it sound real. (Timing & Sound)
No drummer plays like a machine, so you’ve gotta humanize the pattern by moving things round a bit. Check to see if your sequencer has a “humanize” function in the midi fx section. If not your gonna have to do it manually by “shifting” “sliding” (whatever your particular sequencer calls it) one way or the other, the individual notes in the piano roll view.
Now you’ve got the timing and feel to your taste. Which in itself is a very objective and personal thing. Here’s the biggie “the sound”.
All hail the great god Soundfonts.
Firstly your gonna need some, good ones preferably and free would be even better. This is the best site I know for free Soundfonts. www.thesoundsite.net
Check under Soundfonts/Compressed (less download time) oops nearly forgot, before you go downloading any your going to need the utility to uncompress them called SFPACK which you will be happy to hear is free from the same site in the utilities section. It’s basically winzip for soundfonts.
Scroll down to the drum section at the site and download whatever works for you, try lots of different kits (there are plenty to go at) as the “sound” factor is a very personal thing. The one I tend to use a lot is Drums Douglas Natural Studio Kit V2.0 (22,719KB) once you’ve got it downloaded you’ll need to uncompress it using the sfpack utility, and save it to wherever works for you. At this point I can only tell you what I do in Pro 9 this may differ in other sequencers. Come to think of it, there may be easier ways of doing this, this is just the way I do it.
Open the midi drum track you’ve already worked on and place it in track 1.
Now got to “Options” – “Soundfonts” – “Attach” locate the drum kit and hit “Open”.
You now have that Soundfont loaded on bank 1 – hit “Close”
Now open “track properties” by double clicking on “source” in the “track pane view”
Channel = 1. Bank = the Soundfont you loaded. Patch = the kit you want to use.
Bank select method = Controller 0. Port = Soundfont device.
Now hit OK and listen to the track………Mmmm that’s better.
Maybe it’s not quite how you want it, maybe some sounds are missing. Not to worry, there is lots more to do yet. Go into the “piano roll view” where you will see all the different notes laid out and a piano style keyboard to your left. Click on the keys to see what sound is attached to which key and more to the point what notes are attached to a blank key and need moving. (sometimes they will be just where you want them, and sometimes not, depends how they where made up) Click a key to highlight all the notes on that line, then click, hold and drag up or down to the key that has the sound you need ie: snare, kick or whatever, Making sure not to move it left or right in the time frame. Now you have all the notes assigned to the sounds you want and the drum track should now be sounding a whole heap better already. That’s the ground work done, now we can get creative.
Select the midi drum track and go to “Edit” – “Run Cal” – open the Cal folder and select “Split notes to track”. Assuming the track you want to split is on track 1, Source track = 1. Final destination track = 2. Destination channel = 1. Destination port = 1. Click Ok and you should have the drum track split to individual tracks and all playing the chosen Soundfont. Then record each track to audio, left, right, stereo channel, whatever. (Arm a track to record audio, solo the track you want to record and make sure your recording from the midi channel or “what you hear” channel) Repeat this till you’ve got them all. Take the time to get your recording levels as good as poss, as this is a far better option than “Normalizing” everything later. This will get you nice big fat wav files and the levels can be done in the mixer. At this point you can mute all the midi tracks and keep them where they are for reference or re-recording. Or delete them all if your happy with what you’ve got. Now open up your mixer and start messing with levels, recording automation and the like. The great thing is, that now you have real drum sounds individually laid out on there own tracks and there are in audio format. Now you can spend many happy hours messing around with all your favorite plug-ins, Reverb, Comp, Gate, EQ and all, until your reach sonic Nirvana.

Having said all that:
This in no way is ever going to beat a good drummer sitting at a good kit, all miked up and run through a desk. But the point is we don’t all have that option available to us, and need to do the best we can from within what we’ve got. Which in most cases (certainly mine) is one guy sitting in a room, with computer and associated bits and pieces. I aint saying this is what you should do, I’m just saying it’s what I do, and it works for me.

If there is a better or easier way, please let me know, I need the help.
Hope this helps somebody somewhere.

Alan
 
OrangeGangster said:
get a decent drums soundfonts,acctualy,in my humble opinion drums and bass are the only close to "real life" instruments on any of SB soundfonts series,...also check the amount of reverb your using,if its the case...
10 years ago i had a Alesis SR-16,lots of pro did works with them(GREG HOWE as an exemple....) it was ok but,now i wouldnt trade it for what i have with a simple drums soundfonts i´d get for free in Net.Period!
GOOD LUCK!

the biggest problem i see is "Normalize" that is what prolly takes are your dynamic range from your recording and make it sound like its in a can. U need to use compressors/limiters if u wanna raise the sound w/o f*ckin up the audio. They might actually add some omph! to the track if done right
 
Phasing- Flanging sound

I sometimes get that "flange" phase type sound and its usually something in my mixer feeding back to the computer, or, the same sound coming through another output on the mixer slightly delayed due to the long path its has taken to get out!

It usually drives me nuts for awhile until I see the stupid (and obvious) thing I have done wrong like aux send or something else returning back to my speakers.

I am reading this post with great interest and will try the above S/Font instructions in the next few days, I too struggle with realistic drum sounds. I have an SB Live and Zoom RT 323.

Just a newbie with lots to learn i guess!

Mark
 
Kiwi,

Thanks for saving me half the writing I was about to do.

Two more related things that this can also give you this phasing effect:

  • if you render your MIDI tracks to audio tracks and then don't mute the original MIDI tracks on playback
  • if you are re-recording audio from previously-recorded tracks when you record a new one -- if the monitored tracks are bleeding in to the recording track on the computer because you're recording incoming and outgoing audio.

Just like what Kiwi described with the mixer, this can cause you to be hearing two or more copies of the same waveform,which are slightly offset from each other due to the inherent latency of the process, and so they are interfering destructively.
 
Re: Drums sound like crap???

Alan McGuinness said:
Now, how to make it sound real. (Timing & Sound)
No drummer plays like a machine, so you’ve gotta humanize the pattern by moving things round a bit. Check to see if your sequencer has a “humanize” function in the midi fx section. If not your gonna have to do it manually by “shifting” “sliding”
Alan [/B]

Hmmm .... my "sequencer" ...this is where my IQ fades :)

I looked about all the "midi" effects available in CW/SONAR and found nothing. So ..it seems some have something I don't have. Would that be hardware or software or both <sequencer>? I would love to try something like that ..but don't want to have to shift by hand. U got a humanizer on ya :)

Can ya splain more for me on sequencers and such?
 
Look for (Groove) Quantize

Groove Quantize should achieve the same effect as a humanize effect. By Groove Quantizing, you can adjust the accuracy of when each note is played by adjusting it's percentage. For example, setting it to 100% will make the beat sound very tight and mechanical since all notes will be equally spaced. The lower the percentage, the more the rythym constraints on each note loosen and it starts to get a feel to it.

Anyways, look into Quantizing and Groove Quantizing in SONAR to get a better explanation of how to use it.

Dick
 
Re: Re: Drums sound like crap???

XCalibur said:




Can ya splain more for me on sequencers and such?

SONAR IS a sequencer! In ye olden days, Cakewalk only did midi stuff, then they added a few tracks of audio, and now we have sonar.
 
The reason your drums sound "cheap" is because they simply aren't real. You will never attain the feel or sound you are searching for using midi and a sound module. No sequencer or quantizing resolution setting will capture what a real drummer can do. You may come close but you will be putting in a lot of time to get there. I'm a drummer and could help you if you want. Let me know.

Cliff
 
Re: Drums sound like crap???

Alan McGuinness said:
[ and the mere mention of the word “midi” has me running for garlic and a crucifix, the reason I write this is because I just wish someone had told me this a long time ago and saved me the time and frustration of sussing it out for myself.

Maybe this post´s a bit late but i can´t resist,man...i´m still laughting after 5 minutes of reading that garlic and crux thing...i´ve had the same,i while back i thought some bitch from the past had done some works with some strange black porcions or something like that,i was pretty close to go join aleister crowley´s team to fight back the bitch´s curse,but in the end it was just that MIDI shit i couldnt make work on my p.c.
XXERRRSS!!!!
 
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