Mid-Side Recording. What am I doing wrong?

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Chili

Chili

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I recently bought a mic capable of a figure 8 pattern so I can try Mid-Side recording techniques.

Got around to trying it on the acoustic guitar last night and it came out unbalanced, leaning to the left. I read up on the technique and I think I have a solid understanding, but maybe I'm missing something.

Here's what I did:

Two mics, one Figure 8, the other cardioid.
Both mics positioned in a vertical plane with each other and ~6 inches from where the neck meets the body.
Figure 8 mic turned 90 degrees from guitar. Cardioid pointed straight at neck/body joint.
Recorded to two mono tracks.
Duplicated figure 8 track.
Inverted newly copied figure 8 track
Panned both figure 8 tracks hard left and hard right.

Tonally, it's balanced beautifully. :) Spatially, it leans to one side. :(

If I pull down the fader of the cardioid (Mid) track, the two figure 8 tracks are balanced well.
If I pull down the faders of the two figure 8 mics (Side) tracks, the cardioid (Mid) mic is centered.

I have verified the figure 8 mic pattern is indeed set to figure 8.

What am I missing?? Any help is appreciated.
 
It could be that one lobe of the fig. 8 is firing at the headstock, the other at the box. 6 inches is near field so it would seem that everything is working as it should.

If the guitar sounds good in the room you might try going in front of the sound hole from 2 or 3 feet away. It will probably change the tone quite a bit but also center the pickup to the source and move you out of the boomy range too close to the hole.
 
snow lizard said:
It could be that one lobe of the fig. 8 is firing at the headstock, the other at the box. 6 inches is near field so it would seem that everything is working as it should.
Click to expand...

Right, from 6" away all the lows come from the left (audience view). Same with using X-Y from that distance. That's just how it sounds. I'm not sure why a stereo technique would be used to close mic a guitar unless an off balance image was needed to go with some other element of the mix.
 
snow lizard said:
It could be that one lobe of the fig. 8 is firing at the headstock, the other at the box. 6 inches is near field so it would seem that everything is working as it should.

If the guitar sounds good in the room you might try going in front of the sound hole from 2 or 3 feet away. It will probably change the tone quite a bit but also center the pickup to the source and move you out of the boomy range too close to the hole.
Click to expand...
That. It's just louder on the body side.

The "two" figure 8 tracks kind of have to be balanced, since they're actually the same signal!
 
Hmm, that kinda makes sense, I guess. I'm used to close micing the acoustic because I've always used one mic before. I'll try it further away. Maybe post up a clip later tonight or tomorrow.

It just seemed weird that I only get the imbalance when I have both mid and side tracks mixed together.

Thanks guys!!
 
Yup, that's how M/S works! It's only stereo if both signals are mixed correctly.
 
As said, there's a good chance it's just a realistic representation of the tonal differences from the two ends of the guitar, however, it's not uncommon for ribbon mics to have a brighter side.
Try physically flipping the mic around to see if you hear a difference.
 
The real problem is that a guitar just isn't really suitable for this type of stereo recording. M/S isn't really a close mic technique, it's better at a distance using space to make it work. M/S, for example, on a grand piano does exactly the same thing - emphasise the bass end.
 
Well...yeah, more distance equals wider spread....but you can use M/S or Blumlein within a 2-3' distance and still get space and stereo imaging so that it's not as dramatic, which is not a bads thing, as it allows you to mic multiple M/S type tracks together.

I kept reading about Bruce Swedien using that technique for a lot of his tracking....and I was trying to understand how a lot of stereo tracks come together.....but then when I actually tried it, and kept the distances closer, it all made sense.
I recently did a song where almost everything was track either with M/S or Blumlein from no more than 3' away.
Awhile ago I tried it just on a lead guitar, and then I decided to go for it on a complete song...and man, it's way cool.
There is this dimension without the obvious LEFT/RIGHT imaging that can sometime be distracting.
One of the keys if to think about where you will be placing a given instrument in the mix...so when you set up you mics, you slightly offset their balance left/right so that the instrument ends up in the right spot mix-wise, while still having that stereo feel on an individual basis.

I'll be mixing the song in the near future, so I got nothing to post as an example....but it's something I will be doing on other songs from now on.
It won't work on every style of song/arrangement...but when you have "less busy" songs/arrangements....it's an interesting option.
Heck, Swedien use it on a lot of his MJ recordings, and many of them where pretty involved Pop tunes...not just soft, easy ballads....so it's a legit option.
 
Chili said:
Hmm, that kinda makes sense, I guess. I'm used to close micing the acoustic because I've always used one mic before. I'll try it further away. Maybe post up a clip later tonight or tomorrow.
Click to expand...

If you get much farther away the only real stereo information will be the room sound. I've never gotten especially useful results on acoustic guitars with stereo mic techniques. Two SDCs, one at the 12th fret and one on the wide part of the body below the bridge is my go-to setup, but I don't normally pan them apart much.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
I've never gotten especially useful results on acoustic guitars with stereo mic techniques.
Click to expand...
Truth be told, and I mentioned this in another thread a few weeks ago, I'm recording school concert bands. I read that M/S can yield great results with concert bands and choirs if not in front of an audience, which has been the case a few times.

I am trying it on the guitar to experiment and just see if I've got the concept down. Different domain altogether, I know, but I've heard acoustic guitars recorded with the M/S technique and they sound fantastic. So this imbalance has me a little concerned. I figure if I can get a good recording with an acoustic, then a concert band is a cakewalk. Up until yesterday, I've always recorded acoustic guitars with one mic.
 
Chili said:
Truth be told, and I mentioned this in another thread a few weeks ago, I'm recording school concert bands. I read that M/S can yield great results with concert bands and choirs if not in front of an audience, which has been the case a few times.

I am trying it on the guitar to experiment and just see if I've got the concept down. Different domain altogether, I know, but I've heard acoustic guitars recorded with the M/S technique and they sound fantastic. So this imbalance has me a little concerned. I figure if I can get a good recording with an acoustic, then a concert band is a cakewalk. Up until yesterday, I've always recorded acoustic guitars with one mic.
Click to expand...

Try moving the mic closer to the middle of the body.
 
Even in mono, I've never known a guitarist who stayed still enough to mic from 6". M/S at about 18" gives a nicely wide stereo spread on acoustic instruments, in my experience. Actually, I prefer a Blumlein pair for stereo micing acoustic instruments. People say that M/S is better because you can adjust the stereo width - B.S. You can adjust the stereo width with XY, AB, Blumlein, Jecklin disc or whatever; just don't pan the 2 tracks hard LR. The only advantage to M/S is that the mid mic can be used by itself for a phase free mono signal. I've got news for you - most of the other techniques, properly implemented, will yield a pretty good mono signal, if that's a major consideration for you.
 
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