microtonal rock song

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ubertar

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This is a piece I did in 5 tone equal temperament (five equal intervals per octave). It's the title track from my (unreleased) solo cd, "the sun beneath the sea". Everything on it is me, and I did the recording... I built the main instruments on it too.

There's a space in the link, so it's not clickable. You have to cut and paste into your browser: http://helstab.com/music/ubertar/tsbts(title track).MP3

Or just go to http://www.ubertar.com/sounds and click the link there. There's more stuff there as well, and pictures of the instruments at http://www.ubertar.com/instruments.
 
interesting genre of music... reminds me of the Indian (from Asia, not USA) influenced music from the 60s and psychadelic stuff too.

Unfortunately, it's not a genre that I am particularly fond of, so i didn't really like the tune =(. But definitely sounded unique and interesting hehe. The vocals were kind of hard to understand, but i guess that may be part of the style to make it all dreamy etc.
 
This one's probably more Indonesian-influenced than Indian, but I see what you're saying. Thanks for the response, even if it's not your cup of meat.
 
It sounds a lot better on cd. Maybe if I used a better mp3 setting it would sound cleaner. It could be the mix, too, but I think the mp3 conversion is a good % of any muddiness you're hearing. On the other hand, there's a lot of delay in there, particularly on the vocals, that could be muddying things up a bit. Gives it kind of a trippy feel, as Skyflyer said above.

How did I do it is a pretty broad question... I layered a lot of different tracks, one at a time-- the drums came first, then the repeating melody line on the guitar, then the guitar chords, then bass, then vocals, and I forget whether the cymbals or lead guitar came last. Various mics and pres going into a gadgetlabs soundcard into samplitude on a pc. If you have a question about a particular sound I'll do my best to remember what I did. I doubled the vocals and pitch-shifted the copy within the scale, to get the weird backing vocals.
 
I'm all ears for dissonance, but this doesn't work for me for two reasons. First, the selection of an equal-tempered five note scale. Roughly, that gives you a second, a fourth, and fifth, and a minor seventh, except the equal temperament simply makes it sound like an out of tune regular ol' pentatonic scale.

One theory of scales holds that a higher series of tones is generated by added the two lesser series of tones. Thus our usual twelve-tone scale is the addition of a pentatonic scale and a diatonic scale; the next series is nineteen tones, then 31. Because of this phenomenon, if you select a scale within that series, it will tend towards a consonance. Instead if you try an eight-tone scale, for example, you get something more dramatically different. Every other tone is the same as a tone in a twelve-tone scale, but the other tones would be extremely dissonant.

You are correct to compare your five-note scale to Indonesian music, but their scale is based on perfect rather than equal intervals.

Secondly, the heavy use of distortion and portamento further disguises the five-tone scale because of intermodulation and use of notes outside the scale. Unfortunately that contributes to the feeling of the song as off-pitch rather than exotic.

As an aside, I rather enjoyed the Indian/Irish flavor of Finn Mac Cool. I've stood on the hill of Teamhair at sunset on Samhain myself :)
 
Actually, that's not true regarding Indonesian music. Indonesian scales have nothing to do with the harmonic series, and the tunings for slendro and pelog (their two scales) vary from village to village. Slendro is a five note scale in which the intervals are fairly close to five tone equal temperament. There's no reason why you would have scales based on perfect intervals in a style of music where most of the instruments have a timbre which is non-linear (the overtones do not fall in the harmonic series). This is a very geeky argument we're having. :p

I don't see how bending a string from one note in the scale to another note in the scale somehow obscures the scale. It doesn't do that in more familiar scales. The phrasing I'm using is similar to blues phrasing, so you do have a point there.

Did you mean "higher series of overtones"? I'm not sure what you're getting at there otherwise... it sounds like you're referring to building scales in just intonation, but I'm not really sure. Bear in mind that just intonation only applies to linear instruments... eg strings and air columns, instruments with overtones that follow the harmonic series. Most of the instruments in this piece do fall in that category, but not all.

Geeky theory aside, if it sounds out of tune to you, it sounds out of tune to you. On repeated listening (if you are so inclined) it might not. Or it still might. Anyway, thanks for checking it out, and I'm glad you liked Finn MacCool. That one was composed and recorded all in the same morning.
 
Yeah, I really like the tune. It's something new and innovation is always good. However, the sound quality is bordering on unlistenable for me. You say it sounds better on the cd, but I'm pretty familiar with the distortion effects of mp3 encoding, and I can hear that not all of it is from the encoding process. You're losing the high and low frequencies on just about all the instruments I hear. Maybe this is from a low-quality mic or preamp.

Sorry if I just insulted your 3 billion dollar microphone if I'm wrong :P Just trying to get to the source of the mud.
 
Interesting stuff, I applaud your originality. :cool:



ubertar said:
It sounds a lot better on cd.
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That's a copout, sorry. :) There is stuff in the mp3 clinic that sounds like a million bucks on 128kb mp3.

Here is my take on the music:

You have this micronesia influence and tuning, yet it sounds like a western pop song of sorts. THEREFORE, we as listeners are using are ears in the western fashion, so we equate that with being out of tune.

I dont know any pop music with this tuning, I am sure there is tons of it in different areas of the world and different cultures. Ohio aint one of them. :p

Rocket man is correct, you need a lot better sound on this. There is probably a lot you can do with it. As I said, its interesting stuff, I am glad you posted it, best of luck with it.
 
It's been a while since I recorded this, so I don't remember what I did for each track, but the mics I remember using for sure were a Sony C37P and Reslo RV on guitar, an Amperite RBMKH for the cymbals and an RCA 6206 for the vocals. The preamps aren't anything too expensive, but they're good, if obscure: ATI M-1000, Nortronics (I forget the model #-- it's a tube pre, has two Mullard 12ax7s in it).

I don't think it's a gear issue. Maybe I'll upload a better quality mp3 and we can see if you hear a difference. I cut out a lot of low end from other things to make room for the bass, and I don't like a lot of high end in general, so maybe that's what you're hearing. I tend to go for a "dark" sound. Other than the Sony, I'm mostly using ribbon mics.

edit: ok, here's one encoded at 320kb/sec. the other one was 120kb/s.
 
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Thanks for the reply, David K. What is it you're hearing that's wrong with it? I just listened to it (the better version I just posted the link to) in cheap, crappy headphones and can hear each instrument distinctly. I haven't squashed the shit out it like most people do these days. I'm not saying you're wrong... I'm just not hearing what you're hearing. Can you articulate it in a way I might understand?
 
Sure.

It sounds muffled and kinda flat. I am listening on a nice set of AKG headphones.

Here are two things:

1. Listen to another mp3 and compare. I just did, yours is muffled, not bright enough.

2. I am assuming that this is 128kb mp3? It sounds like a 96 or lower. Just turned on my monitors: nope, not my gear.

On second listen I like the song better :) Here's what I like to do with my stuff:

I burn a cd of maybe 10 songs ( usually 128kb mp3s): I will pick the first five to be commercial stuff ( I like Rush, genesis) then I will put mine at 6. For no.8 I will put one that I got off of here from one of y'all.

After listening to 5, my ears are accustomed to the sound. When mine comes on, its not quite as close. Gives me something to strive for. I also put on a recording from here to compare real world home recording with mine.
 
Sorry, I didnt see the 320 mp3. listening now:

Doesnt sound much different.

All I can suggest is to listen to a LOT of mp3s here. I have listened to 100s and it has helped me immensely. A lot of us have been doing this for a while and know the difference between mp3 and .wav and what to expect. If anything I would slap some EQ on the upper frequencies because they are flat and dull. I like your enthusiasm ,keep it up :cool:
 
You'll probably think I'm full of shit, but I really don't like a lot of high end. The high end in a lot of recordings hurts my ears. So it might not have anything to do with quality... I'm just rolling off the highs (or avoiding capturing them in the first place) because I don't like them. Does the lead guitar sound dull to you also? I recorded that with brighter mics using a brighter amp so it would stand out in the mix. The rest of the song is pretty dark, except for the electric saron (xylophone type thing) which was recorded with a borrowed Neumann LDC (I don't remember the model #) but that lead guitar has some crispy highs to it. Either that, or my ears are shot. :(
 
ubertar said:
I'm just rolling off the highs (or avoiding capturing them in the first place) because I don't like them. Does the lead guitar sound dull to you also? I recorded that with brighter mics using a brighter amp so it would stand out in the mix. The rest of the song is pretty dark, except for the electric saron (xylophone type thing) which was recorded with a borrowed Neumann LDC (I don't remember the model #) but that lead guitar has some crispy highs to it. Either that, or my ears are shot. :(
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Your ears arent shot :cool:

Yes the lead sounds dull.

A Lot of factors could be involved: a muddy mix, recording techniques, the room, amp, blah blah blah. Maybe your monitors arent cutting it? I am realizing how important they are to the recording process.

My monitors ( Tannoy PB8II) are old and worn but are OK. These headphones are brand new and sound awesome. Its amazing the difference, even some pro records sound like crap on them. They arent meant to flatter, they are supposed to tell you exactly what is going on.
 
ubertar said:
Actually, that's not true regarding Indonesian music. Indonesian scales have nothing to do with the harmonic series, and the tunings for slendro and pelog (their two scales) vary from village to village. Slendro is a five note scale in which the intervals are fairly close to five tone equal temperament. There's no reason why you would have scales based on perfect intervals in a style of music where most of the instruments have a timbre which is non-linear (the overtones do not fall in the harmonic series). This is a very geeky argument we're having. :p
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I'll concede that the Indonesian music I've been exposed to has probably been washed over for a Western ear. But I think that is a choice you should make. You say your scale is close to slendro, and I believe that, but again your scale is quite close to a "Western" pentatonic as it stands, but not far enough away to sound much but out of tune to a Western ear. And I reiterate that microtones per se don't bother me at all. I lost my resistance to them years ago, in college, so I am your captive audience. I would prefer your music more dissonant, not less.

I don't see how bending a string from one note in the scale to another note in the scale somehow obscures the scale. It doesn't do that in more familiar scales. The phrasing I'm using is similar to blues phrasing, so you do have a point there.
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It doesn't if it is transient, but there were several instances of bends that were held.

Did you mean "higher series of overtones"? I'm not sure what you're getting at there otherwise... it sounds like you're referring to building scales in just intonation, but I'm not really sure. Bear in mind that just intonation only applies to linear instruments... eg strings and air columns, instruments with overtones that follow the harmonic series. Most of the instruments in this piece do fall in that category, but not all.
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No, I mean equal-tempered scales with more notes: 19, or 31. Those are--I hesistate to say common--but notable uses of microtonal scales in modern Western music.

Geeky theory aside, if it sounds out of tune to you, it sounds out of tune to you. On repeated listening (if you are so inclined) it might not. Or it still might. Anyway, thanks for checking it out, and I'm glad you liked Finn MacCool. That one was composed and recorded all in the same morning.
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I gather your latest work is entering a more experimental phase, which I think is great, but don't hold back, if you feel like hitting the listener upside the head with a 2x4, do it!
 
DavidK said:
Your ears arent shot :cool:

Yes the lead sounds dull.

A Lot of factors could be involved: a muddy mix, recording techniques, the room, amp, blah blah blah. Maybe your monitors arent cutting it? I am realizing how important they are to the recording process.

My monitors ( Tannoy PB8II) are old and worn but are OK. These headphones are brand new and sound awesome. Its amazing the difference, even some pro records sound like crap on them. They arent meant to flatter, they are supposed to tell you exactly what is going on.
Click to expand...

Tannoy PBM 6.5, Sony MVR-600 headphones
 
mshilarious said:
your scale is quite close to a "Western" pentatonic as it stands, but not far enough away to sound much but out of tune to a Western ear.


I gather your latest work is entering a more experimental phase, which I think is great, but don't hold back, if you feel like hitting the listener upside the head with a 2x4, do it!
Click to expand...

Exactly, good way to say it. Anyone who went to music school or owneda DX7II has messed with all sorts of tuning systems. I would never know this was a different system, it just sounds out of tune. You should go all out and exxagerate the tuning if needed to let the lstener know what you are up to.
 
mshilarious said:
I'll concede that the Indonesian music I've been exposed to has probably been washed over for a Western ear. But I think that is a choice you should make. You say your scale is close to slendro, and I believe that, but again your scale is quite close to a "Western" pentatonic as it stands, but not far enough away to sound much but out of tune to a Western ear. And I reiterate that microtones per se don't bother me at all. I lost my resistance to them years ago, in college, so I am your captive audience. I would prefer your music more dissonant, not less.
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In the context of the cd, this piece is a lot less dissonant and more "normal" as far as the instruments/timbres go... it's the second to last piece, so by the time you get to it, you've forgotten what 12 tone equal temperament sounds like. :D
 
DavidK said:
Exactly, good way to say it. Anyone who went to music school or owneda DX7II has messed with all sorts of tuning systems. I would never know this was a different system, it just sounds out of tune. You should go all out and exxagerate the tuning if needed to let the lstener know what you are up to.
Click to expand...

How TF can I know how someone else is going to hear it? I use 5 tet a lot. It has a certain sound to it. If I hear it, I recognize it. I chose this piece to present b/c I thought it would be more accessible... that's what you get for trying to guess how other people will hear things. And I went to a couple music schools, and was the only one in either who was messing with tunings... I guess I went to the wrong schools.

This seems to contradict what you said earlier about the 19 tone equal scales, etc. Those give intervals that are closer to just intonated intervals. 5 tet is weirder, IMO. Just intonation (ironically) just sounds "out of tune" to my ears. 5 tet has it's own "flavor". A flavor I like, even if it sounds like out of tune pentatonic minor to a lot of people. This probably sounds pretentious, but I think my stuff requires repeated listening to really appreciate, regardless of whether you've listened to a lot of microtonal music before.
 
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