Microphones Sonic Characteristics

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ODDLY on a graft charting microphone's sonic characteristics (Bright/ Dark - transparent / coller ).


Almost dead center between an AKG C12 and a Nueman U47 is the
Shure SM57 ?

A Studio Projects B1 charts very near an AKG 4040.

MXL V67 (and V69ME)Charts very near the Neuman U47.

The ADK Hamburg and Rode NTK are almost identical to the Nueman U87.
 
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Are you talking about that chart that Dan Richards doodled up?

Just so you know, there's no scientific methodology behind it. It's basically just the result of some guy who likes to record ... and happened to smoke a lot of reefer one night and had too much energy, so he decided to put his opinions on some mics in to a nifty chart/graph.

Actually, it's kind of cool and possibly even a little helpful in some instances, but I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in to it.

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I don't know how scientific these charictoristics can be charted ...

but I will say the diffrence between known inexpensive mic's produced for recording and the "legendary" big names is extremly slight.
 
WOB said:
I don't know how scientific these charictoristics can be charted ...

but I will say the diffrence between known inexpensive mic's produced for recording and the "legendary" big names is extremly slight.


Where do you get that. I mean, I can tell in two seconds if someone is using a crap mic. Sure, you pay a lot for the last 10% past a certain price, but cheap mics are quite obviously cheap mics many times. That doesn't mean to not use the gear you have, but don't keep trying to eat a steak with chop sticks either.
 
Bubba Gump --
If your talking about a K-Mart mic made for kids I agree.

If your talking about inexpensive Studio mic's I strongly disagree.

It's simple logic..

Those old Legendary mic's were developed "invented" by persons who put a great deal of teachnical and Astetic work into them. They developed very good mic's.

Well those patents have all run out.... and the year is 2006!

You can't copy the Trade name but you can copy everything else.

I've listened alot to the inexpensive studio mic's and the expensive one's and the thing that is most obviouse to me is the simmalarity not the contrast.
 
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You're kidding!





You have GOT to be kidding!






You have SERIOUSLY got to be kidding!








You had better be kidding!








:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
 
WOB said:
but I will say the diffrence between known inexpensive mic's produced for recording and the "legendary" big names is extremly slight.

To some folks yes, to other folks no. Besides listening skills, there the source and room, the pre, converters and DAW used and the monitoring chain composition. Lotsa variables.
 
I will agree that we've gotten to the point where the similarities in quality are the first thing that really jumps out at you and surprizes.

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The frequency response graph only gives you part of the picture. Its like buying a car while only looking at the gas milage rating or its 0-60 acceleration. It doesnt tell you how it will handle a sharp corner at 70 mph.
 
No, I'm not kidding!

I'll bet If I had a couple of million dollars ,I could put together a team of various profesionals and produce an EXACT copy of say a Neuwman

(The raw materials of the most expensive mic in the world ,amount to about 5 or 6 dollars...thats including the gold sputer)

I could then sell them to the 100s of thousands of guy's with home digital recording studios.... and I could make a fortune.

Oh... that's right ADK has already done that , the Hamburg.

By a Neumann.... pay for the name.

(I worked at a Brewery... Every one hated that cheap beer we sold but they all loved the expensive stuff.... It was all out of the same Vat) They were happy to pay the price for the name.
 
The thing you are not understanding are that mics are not all from the same vat. Cheap mics use cheap parts. The transformers and capsules are not at all the same in a cheap versus an expensive mic. Yes, you can rip off the design... and the cheaper mics do, but what they don't do is maintain the same quality standards and quality control that the big boys do. Additionally they use cheaper components. Quality control is expensive as are maintaining a good supply line. It is like saying there are only $300 worth of raw materials in a Honda so a 10 year old wearing mittens should be able to make a Honda using a pile of sheet metal. Why does the Honda last forever and a Gm break down? The Honda plant accepts no bad parts where as Gm accepts 2% of their parts to be bad. The cheaper mics HAVE to do these sort of things to stay cheap. The laws of economics don't just disappear. I don't deny you are paying for the name to a certain extent, but the extra cost is not all attributed to the name.

With a few million bucks you could make an exact copy of a U87. Okay, so now mass produce that exact replica and have it consistant from mic to mic AND keep the cost to $100 a pop retail. That part ain't so easy.

Wait a sec... WOB... I knew an ADK rep with those first three letters in his last name. Hrm.... Just a strange coincidence is all.
 
WOB said:
I'll bet If I had a couple of million dollars ,I could put together a team of various profesionals and produce an EXACT copy of say a Neuwman

You go do just that. :D I've always wanted a say a Neuwman.

(The raw materials of the most expensive mic in the world ,amount to about 5 or 6 dollars...thats including the gold sputer)

You could even have them made in China to save on labor cost. Or you could just make them here in the US and use illegal Mexican labor. And when people have problems, you could just send them all to some Indian call center to handle customer service.

Wait a minute ...

I could then sell them to the 100s of thousands of guy's with home digital recording studios.... and I could make a fortune.

Yes, yes! A fortune.

Oh... that's right ADK has already done that , the Hamburg.

And Mogami ... and Studio Projects .. and SE ... CAD ... Behringer ... Nady ... who else am I forgetting?

By a Neumann....

Yes! By a Newman! By! By!

I worked at a Brewery...

Five, six, seven, eight. Sclemeel, schlemazel, hasenfeffer incorporated.

We're gonna do it!

.
 
bubbagump The laws of economics don't just disappear. I don't deny you are paying for the name to a certain extent..... With a few million bucks you could make an exact copy of a U87..[/QUOTE said:
The Law's of economics don't disapear.... They change with the time.

35 years ago , It cost a large amount of money to develope high quality mic's and the market was a -1 in a million.. One recording studio in a major city might purchase a studio mic.


The market today is every other guy and his brother.

Oh I forgot the Nueman people use fairy dust.

It's already been done, the inexpensive high quality mic's are allready out there .

All that's left is the ellusion of some mystical thing...

(May be I should see about being an ADK rep.?)
 
WOB said:
No, I'm not kidding!

I'll bet If I had a couple of million dollars ,I could put together a team of various profesionals and produce an EXACT copy of say a Neuwman

(The raw materials of the most expensive mic in the world ,amount to about 5 or 6 dollars...thats including the gold sputer)

I could then sell them to the 100s of thousands of guy's with home digital recording studios.... and I could make a fortune.

Oh... that's right ADK has already done that , the Hamburg.

By a Neumann.... pay for the name.

(I worked at a Brewery... Every one hated that cheap beer we sold but they all loved the expensive stuff.... It was all out of the same Vat) They were happy to pay the price for the name.

Well, your theory is interesting. I suspect that if you ever get a chance to hear and use Neumann, Microtech Gefell, Schoeps (and a host of other) microphones you might speak from experience instead of from your ass.
 
So What are you saying now Sdelsolray?

I'm talking out of my ass if I think the Hamburg and many other copied Mic's are top quality?

sdelsolray said:
"I read over at the ADK forum that ADK will be shipping two upgraded mics, the Vienna II and the Hamburg II in April, and will be keeping the Vienna I and Hamburg I in the product line. I've only tried the Hamburg I, and I liked it alot."

Hmmmmm Didn't you just say that a while back?

Ive heard many sound clips side by side compaired. Expensive inexpensive.

Of course if I was actualy such a dope as to have put out $5,000 for one I'd want to belive there was somthing Mystical about the way they put together a mic 40 years ago that modern technolidgy can't duplicate.

If youve got one of those absudly priced mic's...
My advice is to sell it on eBay before there isn't enybody left who falls for that BS.

<sound clipshttp://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=536248>
 
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WOB said:
No, I'm not kidding!

I'll bet If I had a couple of million dollars ,I could put together a team of various profesionals and produce an EXACT copy of say a Neuwman

(The raw materials of the most expensive mic in the world ,amount to about 5 or 6 dollars...thats including the gold sputer)

I could then sell them to the 100s of thousands of guy's with home digital recording studios.... and I could make a fortune.

Oh... that's right ADK has already done that , the Hamburg.

By a Neumann.... pay for the name.

(I worked at a Brewery... Every one hated that cheap beer we sold but they all loved the expensive stuff.... It was all out of the same Vat) They were happy to pay the price for the name.

A Neumann U47 sold for $600 when it was first introduced. It now holds a purchase price from $6000 to $9000, depending on it's condition. It is still considered an amazing sound and engineering achievement as well as the Grandpappy of all mics. It is also a benchmark for all others by virtue of it's astounding performance. The performance is a result of the refined components that make up the mic.

Let's examine these for a moment?

First, buy the production facility. It will need a clean room.

The capsule: The M7 capsule has a specific arrangement of drilled holes and vents. The depth of the vents are just as important as the sizes and arragement. You would have to purchase an automated drilling system and blocks to hold capsule backplates. You also have to mill said backplates from brass to specific tollerances, as much as 40 microns. (a human hair is about 50 microns) Then you have to measure these tollerances to make sure they are in spec. This requires a highly trained operator who will demand to be paid well.

Now the M7 capsule doesn't use Mylar, it uses PVC, which is liquified and poured onto glass to make the diaphragms. It is poured to 6 microns thick. The glass must be perfectly level so the pour doesn't thicken at one side and thin out at the other. The operator will need to be very skilled and will want to be well paid.

Now you have to have an evaporator and a vacuum pump. That's the way Neumann did it. Not sputtered, but actually evaporated the gold and pumped to the diaphragm. Nice even gold coating that way. No grain in the PVC and very even coating of gold. This requires a highly trained operator who will demand to be paid well.

Then you have to glue the diaphragm to the backplate and it has to be tensioned to an exact frequency for the capsule to produce that Neumann sound. Can't get the glue anywhere but the capsule edge or you ruin it and have to throw it away. Someone has to do this and attach the leads gingerly or the will damage the capsule. This requires a highly trained operator who will demand to be paid well.

The transformer: You can't use cheap, off the shelf trafos or it won't sound like a u47. You have to build your own or OEM them. Cinemag makes one, but it's $107, so your mic is gonna cost more tha $100 right there!

Twin bobbin transformer with multi-metal laminates in a mixture designed to give a specific color. Neumann had to have a full R&D team to develop this, but you'll have the advantage of a chemist analysis. You still have to insulate and wind the bobbins. You'll have to purchase the machine that does the winding and train the operator. Trafos must be checked for performance. They also have to be sealed to prevent corrosion. This requires a highly trained operator who will demand to be paid well.

The Tube: Ah.. The famed VF17 vacuum tube!! It isn't made anymore! They are $1200 each if you can find one, so now were at $1300 cost just between the trafo OEM and the tube purchases.

You could buy up EF14's, but they are also getting very rare and expensive then you have to wire the mic differently for the 6.3v filament.

I guess the only alternative is to make your own VF14 tubes.

No, to make it sound just like a Neumann it HAS to be a VF14. So now we have to set up a vacuum tube factory. That's a hard one! Before you do that, you have to buy a VF14 (several for accuracy) and reverse engineer it. Find the exact materials for the filaments, the cathode, the plates, the anode, how the grid is wound. This requires a highly trained engineer who will demand to be paid well. That's before you begin assembly in a clean room and have the system set up to move the components into the tube, seal it a suck out all the air.

Now you've got to machine the body and connectors. AND THE GRILL! It needs to be the right angle, right guage and mesh and then chrome plated!

We've gotta get this mic wired, but we can't use off the shelf Radio Shack parts. Those will make the mic sound like crap! We need resistors of the right values and high-end audiophyle capacitors. Those are $10 to $250 a peice.

You also have to vacuum plastic former for the switch and capsule mount assembly and add the metal connectors. Now we can wire this mic, that should be easy, and IS! It goes together quickly because all the supports are bent and shaped to the right angles in the specks and the holes a precision drilled. Hell, this mic is almost complete!

Glad the power supply department is on the job. They've machined and painted the housing, mounted all the resistors and caps, wired it point-to-point and installed that huge transformer. They punched the holes for the connectors and installed them. They've tested the output voltage and cables, switches, lights, fuses.

Wow! It's done! We did it!! The first $100 off the shelf Telefunken U47 clone!

That wasn't so bad, was it??

Should I write you a check right now? How soon before delivery?
 
Here's a guy that bought into the Hype a long time ago.

And let's not forget the paint,they don't make that paint anymore! It could never be the real thing!

and You can see the diffrence between a Dimond and a Cubic Zerconium can't you,PhilGood?

But But it's an AKG C12 that's a diamond and the Nueman U47 that's a Ruby and a zerconium dosn't look like a Ruby and You cant make anything look like a Ruby can you?

and that MXL looks pink!
Which one is the Saphire ? Is it the AKG 4040 or Studio projects B1?...but aaa, OH now I'm so confused..


Ok - Do we want it very natural or just a tiny bit more collored ,or no I mean just a tiny bit brighter ,no I'm thinking Darker....

Oh well .... With a tiny bit of EQ or a tiny bit of a filter any one of them can sound exactly like any other one anyway...
 
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It's apparent that you have no understanding of physics, sound, principles of electronics and components or how things like resistance, sensitivity, capacitance, linearity of components, tuning, harmonics, reflective properties and many esoteric properties that happen within the signal chain, (things like EQ) are actually destructive to sound, not additive.

If you think that adjusting EQ will make one sound like another, then brother, you are way off base. There are many properties behind the scenes that you do not comprehend. Transients and harmonics for one. Linearity of the different types of capacitors for another. Vibrations of certain types of materials, how magnetic feilds are affected my core materials. Things like signal loss and distorion seem to be beyond your grasp.

You would look at a diamond and a cubic zirconia and think that since they sparkle the same, they will both cut glass the same way.

There is a whole world you are completely unaware of.

The first thing you need to learn is that the capsule construction is most important. 90% of the sound comes from how well the capsule is designed and manufactured. After that, the head amp needs to be of decent construction and high quality components to ensure the signal is not altered by inferior componenets. Bad circuits and parts drasticly effect the representation of sound that the capsule generates.

Since most chinese capsules are poorly constructed, they can't reproduce sound in a manner worthy of a decent head amp, much less the inferior componenets they use that destroy the purity of sound a decent capsule would produce!

You have a lot to learn!

Please stop trying to tell people that these cheap mics are at the same level and just by twisting a few knobs, they will get the same sound. That is complete misinformation.

Vintage mics sound the way they do because brilliant people designed them with all the science in mind. Someone trying to reproduce this same technology with cheaper components will always come up short and no amount of EQ or processing will produce the same results.
 
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