microphone selection pared down

O

o-ron

New member
I've narrowed down my microphone search to the following models:

1. Marshall v67
2. Marshall 603
3. Marhsall 2003

At the moment, my priority for micing is piano and violin. I recently did a recording of a piano using 2 akg c1000's and was not terribly impressed by their sound for the piano.

I will most likely get 2 different model microphones, and am wondering which models to get and quantity of each to properly mic a piano and violin (together). I'm going to be selling my C1000.


Thanks
 
Hmmm. Piano and fiddle?

I'd get myself a couple of 2003's for the piano and maybe a third for the fiddle? :)

Maybe just get two of each (2003 and 603). I wouldn't reach for a v67 on either of those applications, though.
 
Gosh, I wouldn't have chosen a Marshall for recording (my) violin. If you are committed to using a condenser, I'd try the Oktava 012 for the low cost route. If you can think in the price range, listen to AKG C391 (nothing like the C2000).

How about a nice dynamic?
 
ok, maybe I should ask this:

Here's a hypothetical situation:

I want to record a violin and piano each on their own tracks but recorded at the same time (not layered). The music will be classical, so I'm looking for the best acoustic sound. (will most likely be recorded in a concert hall, but possibly in a non-reverberant studio room and add reverb later).

Ok, now keeping the total budget <$500, what mics should I get?

Thanks
 
* a couple of Marshall mxl 2003's on the piano ($300)

* 1 octava mc012 on the fiddle . . . . . . . . . . . .($150)

* 2 Behringer ecm8000's set back a ways, mostly to pick up room embience. (70)

There. $20 over your budget, but close enough. If you still must stay under $500 then substitute the mc012 w/ a Marshall mxl 603 ($60)

Also try one of the ecm8000's close up on the fiddle (maybe just above the player). If you like that better, then try swapping that with the mc012.
 
Okay, let me ask you this. What is the rest of your setup? (mic pres, mixer?, recorder...) Do you care about isolation between the piano and violin, or is it okay if the mics bleed into each other? Is this mostly violin with piano accompaniment, or are they equal in the arrangements?
 
Deacon, if he's recording in a concert hall, there is going to be bleed. :)

I've changed my mind: 2 mxl 2003's on piano, and an ecm8000 on the fiddle. Plus one more ecm8000 set a little ways back from the piano, but far away from the fiddle mic. And that's final. No more advice outa' me. :) :)
 
well, on consideration I had thought about recording the piano and violin simultaneously, but on separate stereo tracks, and then adding reverb afterwards (this especially the case if we decide to *not* record in the concert hall).

Also, I'm curious that most of you suggest 1 mic for the violin, and even getting by w/ just the behringer mic for the violin? It will be the main instrument in the recording with piano playing accompaniament (albeit, very prominent and professionally done accompaniamnet).

P.S. A couple other side questions:
which (if any) of these mics would also be good for
1. Orchestral Harp (but performed solo)
2. Guitar
3. Classical Vocals

Thanks!
 
chessrock said:
* a couple of Marshall mxl 2003's on the piano ($300)

* 1 octava mc012 on the fiddle . . . . . . . . . . . .($150)

* 2 Behringer ecm8000's set back a ways, mostly to pick up room embience. (70)

Also try one of the ecm8000's close up on the fiddle (maybe just above the player). If you like that better, then try swapping that with the mc012.
Click to expand...

Ok, I found the ecm8000's for $40 each new at zZounds.com (are these things really that good? why are they so cheap? and why is it they're only recommended for 'acoustical measuring' - seems like that ultra flat response would be good for recording too...?)

I found the Octava also on ebay for $76, but it's still under reserve price.

As far as the mxl 2003's, the best I've found is $180 each on Ebay. Do you know of somewhere where I could get 2 for only $300?

Thanks!
 
o-ron said:


As far as the mxl 2003's, the best I've found is $180 each on Ebay. Do you know of somewhere where I could get 2 for only $300?
Click to expand...

I take that back. Looks like zZounds.com has those mics for $150 each as well! Great!
 
O-ron, what is your recorder? Are you multitracking, or going to a stereo recorder?

Yes, there will be bleed in the hall. The point is, is it desired to have isolation sufficient to adjust balance afterwards? This will affect the proximity of your micing and how tight you want the pattern of the mics to be (and how much of the hall you want your main mics to pick up). It is generally NOT preferred to mic a violin very closely, so you might not want an omni on it.

A measurement mic design places a premium on flat response as opposed to other factors such as output level and noise floor. I don't know what the level and noise of the ECM8000 are, but I betcha its not nearly as good as a good real condenser (the ECM8000 is an electret). Much of the time this does not matter if you are micing close to sufficiently loud sources and have good pres (but a violin can get very, very soft, especially in the hands of someone with good bow control).

The cheapest 2003 I know of is the Mars V93M (verified by Marshall to be the same, rebadged for Mars). 150 WITH shockmount. But I'd rather use the 603 on the piano if I was using Marshall.

Best reasonable cost violin mic I have used is a Beyer m260, usually ~200 bucks used, and you need a good pre. Smoooooth response for violin, and a nice tight pattern with little off-axis coloration.
 
As far as the Behringers go, it's pretty well-known around here that they kick-ass for the money. Don't let the price tag scare you off. The noise floor and output levels don't tend to be issues with them, either, if a halfway-decent preamp is used. I have also heard that picking up the embience of the room is important as well, and for this an omni-directional pattern works well (which the ecm8000 has).

The reason I'm mentioning the Behringers and the mxl 2003's is because both are very accurate and neutral in character, with flat freq. response curves. From what I have read, ribbon mics seem to be the favorite for the violin, but if you don't have that kind of cash, an accurate, neutral-sounding mic is your next best option. The same is often true for piano, depending on the style you are after.

The 603's are somewhat bright (check the curve on Marhall's web site), which is why I'm not sure if I would recommend them, unless that is the sound you are after.

The 2003's are transformerless, and the freq. response pattern is pretty much flat as a board, with only the slightest of elevations in the higher freqs. The Behringers also double as measurement mics, which is about as neutral and accurate as it gets.

What the hell? Just get a bunch of 57's and close mic everything through an ART Tube MP and you'll be fine. :)
 
Equipment I'll be using:

Laptop running software capable ofr 96/32 multitrack recording.
External USB Soundcard capable of 4-track simultaneous at 48/24 and 2-track simultaneous at 96/24.

I'll be using either a Mackie 1402vlz or 1604vlz to mix and bus, and using its own mic preamps (which are quite decent).

I've debated on whether I want to record each instrument as a separate stereo track (hence 4 channel) and balance/mix/reverb post-facto, or whether I should just mix everything down to 2-channel and record 1 stereo track at 96/24 and hope that the mix turned out right during the recording (if I did this I would most likely also go for more room ambience and natural reverb).

I'm looking for a good classical sound, but I don't want it to sound like a solo piano and violin just happen to be performing in a giant concert hall (that would be better for orchestra) - I want it to be a bit more intimate than that. The reverb effects I have in software are quite good (all editable and done in 32 bit).

But then again, I don't want cheesy artificial sound (imagine John Tesh piano/violin arrangements...)

Again, thanks for all your help and advice!!
 
one addendum to previous post:

The best recording I have of these actual performers was a live performance where I simply set up 2 AKG C-1000's (the best I had) in a stereo x-y about 7 feet away and in front of the violin performer, with the piano set perpendicular behind the violinist. The sound was actually quite nice and smooth for the violin considering (although the c-1000's tend to be a bit nasal and bright), but the piano was too distant and 'ambient' for a good sound. (it was not separately mic'ed).
 
Well o-ron, I doubt we'll ever get down to a consensus here, but what the hey, that's part of the fun.

I don't know why you "don't want it to sound like a solo piano and violin just happen to be performing in a giant concert hall", if that is really what it is, but maybe that's where we simply differ. The acoustics of a good hall are like precious gold when you have them and I would hesistate to substitute reverb effects, if there weren't some other compelling reason (like noisy ventilators or light dimmers or some other problems in the hall).

Re the instrumentation mics, see this thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=36354
particularly in regards to comments regarding self-noise and output

I record a lot of chamber music, and find that the self-noise is mercilessly revealed in a very good quiet hall, especially during rests, and silences at the beginnings and endings of movements. This is much less of a problem recording contemporary music, which is what mostly goes on here, I suspect. Of course, this gets worse when you mic from farther away, as is typically the case with violin and when you use only two mics to pick up everything including the hall.

A ribbon mic is fabulous for getting the most flattering sound from most violins and other bowed strings, and can be used more up close, but you need a good preamp. A used Beyer m260 is not prohibitively expensive, typically ~200 on ebay, but they come up relatively infrequently, and being on the fragile side, getting a good one is a little bit of a crapshoot.

I prefer the 603 over the 2003 because I think it has a more even and warmer sound, which I think would be better especially on a good large grand piano, which can generate surprisingly deep and strong low fundamental tones. I would take Marshall's response curves with a HUGE BOULDER of salt (in other words I don't personally find them useful at all as a guide to how the mics sound), but it is rather by listening that you will get tuned in to the unique acoustic signature of each mic. I guess others do find the curves to be more useful, but my ears don't seem to be tuned that way.
Also, the accuracy of these remarkably smooth looking advertised curves is highly questionable -see this link for more info:
https://homerecording.com/bbs//showthread.php?s=&threadid=27030&perpage=40&pagenumber=8.

BTW, my Oktava MC012 has a substantially lower self noise than the 603. I also think it a little smoother in the highest octave.

I like the idea of multitracking in that you basically have two main stereo mics, then use close-up mics and ambient mics to tweak the final mix to taste. Easy to eat up half a dozen channels that way real quick!

Sounds like you have some challenging and rewarding projects ahead, enjoy!
 
Well o-ron, I doubt we'll ever get down to a consensus here, but what the hey, that's part of the fun.

I don't know why you "don't want it to sound like a solo piano and violin just happen to be performing in a giant concert hall", if that is really what it is, but maybe that's where we simply differ. The acoustics of a good hall are like precious gold when you have them and I would hesistate to substitute reverb effects, if there weren't some other compelling reason (like noisy ventilators or light dimmers or some other problems in the hall).

Re the instrumentation mics, see this thread:
https://homerecording.com/bbs/showthread.php?threadid=36354
particularly in regards to comments regarding self-noise and output

I record a lot of chamber music, and find that the self-noise is mercilessly revealed in a very good quiet hall, especially during rests, and silences at the beginnings and endings of movements. This is much less of a problem recording contemporary music, which is what mostly goes on here, I suspect. Of course, this gets worse when you mic from farther away, as is typically the case with violin and when you use only two mics to pick up everything including the hall.

A ribbon mic is fabulous for getting the most flattering sound from most violins and other bowed strings, and can be used more up close, but you need a good preamp. A used Beyer m260 is not prohibitively expensive, typically ~200 on ebay, but they come up relatively infrequently, and being on the fragile side, getting a good one is a little bit of a crapshoot.

I prefer the 603 over the 2003 because I think it has a more even and warmer sound, which I think would be better especially on a good large grand piano, which can generate surprisingly deep and strong low fundamental tones. I would take Marshall's response curves with a HUGE BOULDER of salt (in other words I don't personally find them useful at all as a guide to how the mics sound), but it is rather by listening that you will get tuned in to the unique acoustic signature of each mic. I guess others do find the curves to be more useful, but my ears don't seem to be tuned that way.
Also, the accuracy of these remarkably smooth looking advertised curves is highly questionable -see this link for more info:
https://homerecording.com/bbs//showthread.php?s=&threadid=27030&perpage=40&pagenumber=8.

BTW, my Oktava MC012 has a substantially lower self noise than the 603. I also think it a little smoother in the highest octave.

I like the idea of multitracking in that you basically have two main stereo mics, then use close-up mics and ambient mics to tweak the final mix to taste. Easy to eat up half a dozen channels that way real quick!

Sounds like you have some challenging and rewarding projects ahead, enjoy!
 
thanks for the good info, deacon.

I agree, the sound of a violin and a piano in a good acoustical hall is marvelous (especially live), but what I was trying to describe was that I didn't want the amateur sound of someone who just put a stereo mic in the middle of the hall to pick up both instruments from about 30 feet away (good acoustics, but the instruments sound like they are ghosts off stage somewhere..)

In other words, looking for mic setups in this situation which will take advantage of the acoustics, but allow me to get a nice close detailed sound. (think of some recent Gil Shaham recordings - ie four seasons w/ Orpheus).

Thanks!!
 
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