micing my guitar cab: tone sucks. samples inside. need advice

M

MegaGoo

New member
hi guys. im really looking to improve the tone of my mic'd 5150.. heres the details

jackson dr-3 w/ a steve's special humbucker through a maxon od808 into the low gain input of the 5150. running through an avatar 4x12 cab loaded with 2 celestion v30s and 2 celestion classic lead 80s. i have a condenser mic (model # something like "MXL 2000" and a sennheiser mic which i dont know the model # offhand. its probably a lower/midrage standard vocal dynamic mic.

i've tried a few different setups but sticking the sennheiser in front of the v30 seems to sound best. i run it through a yamaha poweramp/mixer, and from there out of the RCA-out into a sb external audigy 2. i think at one point we ran it into the audigy from the yamaha some other way than rca but it didnt make much of a difference. i think balanced out. but heres a clip:
.. the tone just seems kind of... distant maybe not full and up front.

for contrast, heres what im used to hearing (through my j-station)

full song (comments please :) )
(in progress)

quick sample (no comments on the sloppiness please :) )
(lamb of god riff)

so basically im trying to figure out what i can do to get a better sound from the 5150 because mic'ing a cabinet will always outdue amp modeling (from what i hear). i know the weak point in my chain is the mic preamp. i hear a lot of talk about the digidesign mbox and the m-audio mic preamps. is that the KEY piece that im missing to my chain? im not looking to spend much unless it will yield high results. i can probably borrow an sm57 for recording when need-be.

but given the clip and hardware i posted, what would be the best solution that would give me the best results while being simple. i know i can spend a ton of money and get all kinds of gear but im not looking to do that. just maybe change a couple of peices of gear at most. any effects and compressions/limiters etc will be done with plugins in Sonar.

thanks
eddie
 
MegaGoo said:
i know the weak point in my chain is the mic preamp. i hear a lot of talk about the digidesign mbox and the m-audio mic preamps. is that the KEY piece that im missing to my chain?
Click to expand...


No it is not and do not listen to anyone tell you differently.

It has been said that the last 10% of your sound costs 90% of the money, (no disrespect) but those clips don't sound like they are at the "last 10%" yet.

They don't sound bad, but you can't tell until you mix it in with other tracks. Just try different mic positions and aim them at different areas of the speaker. Center is bright, edge is woofier.
 
MegaGoo said:
the tone just seems kind of... distant maybe not full and up front.
Click to expand...


Mix in less of the MXL mic and more of the close mic'd dynamic mic.

Thats where I'd start.

Buy the way, where is the MXL at anyways?
 
in that clip, the mxl mic is not in it at all i believe. im not 100% sure. i tried so many configurations. but it still doesnt sound good with just the condensor on it.

yea i know i'm not close to that final 10%. thats why im asking for help. my j-station has better tone than the mic'd 5150
 
MegaGoo,

I feel your pain...although you are ahead of me with getting a sound, I have probably over 80 hours of trying different things to get a better sound. What has gotten me the closest is turning both the distortion and high down on the amp...the downside to that is getting the chickin' pickin' harmonics to sound good.

I too am very interested in seeing this get resolved; you and I have a similar style when it comes to heavier tunes.

Dave
 
I have been experimenting lately with lots of different cab micing techniques.

I personally don't think you are THAT far off - I think that tone is at least workable for demo type stuff if it had to be. Here is what your tone sounds like after a little EQ, some compression and gain boost (and keep in mind I am by no means a pro at this, so imagine what a pro could do with it)


From what I have seen, the general consensus by the guys who do this for a living seems to be to try to get a good tone WITHOUT resorting to EQ, or at least as little as possible. I had to EQ the hell out of it, which is probably not ideal. So you might want to try adjusting the highs and mids on your amp. Cut the mids below 12 oclock, and the bass just a bit above 12, crank up the highs and presence up to 9 o'clock. It might sound crap in the room, but it might sound better recorded. Give it a try.

P.S. I like the riff

Amra
 
Damn, I think it sounds pretty damn good the way it is. The only thing I would suggest, is that it needs a more trebly sound. Maybe backing off the bass, and kicking in the treble would help.

I know lots of rock bands love backing the mid-range all the way back to get that crunch, but it tends to sound muddy when you add the other instruments. I used to think I had to have gain at 100% for a really distorted sound, but I found out that when I go to about 50% on the gain, the guitar tracks start to sound a lot more powerful. Then I add three rhythm guitar parts: one left, one right, and one in the center. Or you can do two left, and two right, with no center. The center one is always optional since that's where the bass and drums go.

Is this one of Hetfield's lost tracks from AND JUSTICE FOR ALL? I mean that as a compliment with all sincerity, since I love AJFA. Great guitar work on your piece, and great riffs... very clean and tight.

If i'm not mistaken, I remember reading that Max Norman recorded Randy Rhoads with one mic (a Shure 57) on the cabinet (about 2 feet away from one of the cones), and another mike behind (like 6-10 feet) for ambience. Then he would just mix them together to get a full sound. Try doing that for two tracks... one on the left, and one on the right.
 
MegaGoo said:
hi guys. im really looking to improve the tone of my mic'd 5150.. heres the details

jackson dr-3 w/ a steve's special humbucker through a maxon od808 into the low gain input of the 5150. running through an avatar 4x12 cab loaded with 2 celestion v30s and 2 celestion classic lead 80s. i have a condenser mic (model # something like "MXL 2000" and a sennheiser mic which i dont know the model # offhand. its probably a lower/midrage standard vocal dynamic mic.

i've tried a few different setups but sticking the sennheiser in front of the v30 seems to sound best. i run it through a yamaha poweramp/mixer, and from there out of the RCA-out into a sb external audigy 2. i think at one point we ran it into the audigy from the yamaha some other way than rca but it didnt make much of a difference. i think balanced out. but heres a clip:
.. the tone just seems kind of... distant maybe not full and up front.

for contrast, heres what im used to hearing (through my j-station)

full song (comments please :) )
(in progress)

quick sample (no comments on the sloppiness please :) )
(lamb of god riff)

so basically im trying to figure out what i can do to get a better sound from the 5150 because mic'ing a cabinet will always outdue amp modeling (from what i hear). i know the weak point in my chain is the mic preamp. i hear a lot of talk about the digidesign mbox and the m-audio mic preamps. is that the KEY piece that im missing to my chain? im not looking to spend much unless it will yield high results. i can probably borrow an sm57 for recording when need-be.

but given the clip and hardware i posted, what would be the best solution that would give me the best results while being simple. i know i can spend a ton of money and get all kinds of gear but im not looking to do that. just maybe change a couple of peices of gear at most. any effects and compressions/limiters etc will be done with plugins in Sonar.

thanks
eddie
Click to expand...


On my last post, I heard the full song with the J-Station and I thought it was the mic'd cabinet. Sorry.

Honestly, I don't hear that much of a difference. It's not that noticeable. I think both the J-Station and the mic'd cabinet could stand to use more treble on the initial recordings. You could eq it. Pro Tools has an excellent EQ that may fix it in the mixing stage.

You can try recording the 5150 with more treble, and backing off on the bass. You can then try combining a trebly track with the original more bassy track and see what it sounds like. Or have you thought about combining the 5150 track as it is and the J-Station tracks together? The best of both worlds (no pun intended if you're a VH fan), and there's no rule that says you can't do that.
 
Trying different mics makes a big difference. Lots of guys use SM57's and E609's - Both work well for micing cabs, but the 57 is a bit more finiky on placement.

Sorry, that's about all the "usefull" info I have to contribute.

Comment on the material: You need to play faster!!! :) :rolleyes:

Rick
 
The guitar does sound quite good once EQd and processed. I am pretty sure that if you used a better mic (SM57) you would get better results. The tone sounds ok but maybe a tad muddy and not enough life.
The full song with the fake guitars sound not bad and almost beleivable. A few bits at the start sound a bit dodgy and can tell it aint a real amp and the tone sounds a little fake at the heavy bits if you really listen to it. But overall the mix is really good. Is that fake drums i hear also?
Im kinda not liking all this technology to make tracks sound this good with minimal effort. Kinda cheating.
Keep it real guys.
 
strange. i stopped getting emails saying i had replies to this topic. anyways

i'll make this short and have a better reply tomorrow as i am falling asleep. but let me ask, would getting a microphone tube preamp help my recordings? like i said, im running the chain through a basic power amp/mixer deal. this looks pretty cool and only 60 bucks http://www.musiciansfriend.com/srs7/fg=101/g=live/search/detail/base_id/114126
(tube mic preamp). throw that between the mic and soundcard. i think i even read a review saying someone put it before a j-station and it made the sound better.

is something like this worth it for recordings to where i would notice a difference? i've been thinking that not only my lack of experience on micing a cab is giving me this lacking tone, but my hardware as well, but i dont have any idea which one is hurting me more. from the sound of it from you guys it seems its more of an experience issue. playing with mics on a cab isnt too rewarding when you arent even sure if you've simply reached the limits that having the hardware i have will get you

the tone im getting just seems to be lacking. dull. i dunno. sounds distant like i said. not in your face at all. maybe im wrong. mixing it with the j-station would be interesting.

either way, i will make it a point to experiment a little more with placement and tone of the amp.

oh and this raises a good point. what is the typical volume that you record at if you are close micing?? i say turn it way way up to get the tube warmth. my fellow guitar player in my band says keep it lower because you will clip the mic. whats the deal?

thanks for the tips and keep them coming

eddie
 
I wouldn't bother with the tube preamp, especially that particular model. It'll do nothing to benefit your sound.

Don't judge the "in your face" quality until you have the final guitar track compressed and turned up enough in the mix. All of my guitar tracks sound pretty distant and low-key until I get the right compression and reverb, then it sounds more polished and satisfactory.

Also, when micing a cabinet, crank up the amp. This especially holds true if you're using a tube amp. A good dynamic mic won't distort even under extreme sound pressure levels.
 
Tadpui said:
I wouldn't bother with the tube preamp, especially that particular model. It'll do nothing to benefit your sound.

Don't judge the "in your face" quality until you have the final guitar track compressed and turned up enough in the mix. All of my guitar tracks sound pretty distant and low-key until I get the right compression and reverb, then it sounds more polished and satisfactory.

Also, when micing a cabinet, crank up the amp. This especially holds true if you're using a tube amp. A good dynamic mic won't distort even under extreme sound pressure levels.
Click to expand...

ok very cool. does anyone else share this sentiment? that gives me a little more hope here.

Tadpui, did you actually listen to the clip and think that i have something workable?

any good tips for micing and/or post recording tasks like compressions or eqing specifically for micing a high gain amp?

one person whos sound i liked told me to point a dynamic mic directly at the dust cap, then rotate it 45 degrees or so till it points to aroudn the outer rim of the speaker. is that accurate, or any other pointers?

thanks again
eddie
 
Yeah i have a wee rule. If its Beringher dont buy it.
You could be right by saying that you have got as good a result out of the gear you have, but also i would try every possibility first before just choosing the easy fake option. I would try different guitars and pick up selector settings/tone knob settings.
 
MegaGoo said:
ok very cool. does anyone else share this sentiment? that gives me a little more hope here.

Tadpui, did you actually listen to the clip and think that i have something workable?

any good tips for micing and/or post recording tasks like compressions or eqing specifically for micing a high gain amp?

one person whos sound i liked told me to point a dynamic mic directly at the dust cap, then rotate it 45 degrees or so till it points to aroudn the outer rim of the speaker. is that accurate, or any other pointers?

thanks again
eddie
Click to expand...

Eddie,
Your stuff sounds great. The tone needs more treble in parts... that will make it stand out. I don't think you have too much distortion... it sounds good, but sometimes too much distortion will make you lose presence in the mix.

I just bought a cheap Samson preamp ($100), and my brother tells me that i should record EVERYTHING through it... bass, guitars, solos, vox... everything. He says I won't notice the difference until I track the whole thing through. An example is using Neve preamps for vox. You won't get that Neve sound through one or two vocal tracks. It's only when you have a lot of tracks stacked that you begin to notice the difference, and you start to get that Neve sound. The whole reason to use pre-amps is to give you a warmer sound.

I've had good luck with Behringer stuff, but lots of folks say that it's not good to use them. I say it's crazy to not use the stuff. Some of us can't afford Avalon preamps, Summit preamps... and all that stuff. I say be creative and use everything you can get your hands on. How many times have people ragged on gear they thought was stupid, and then someone has come along and done something wonderful with it that redeems the gear in the eyes of the jaded? It's all in the song. A great song will sound great no matter what gear you use. How many songs are there that sound great, but the song itself ain't worth a darn?

Have you tried doubling your guitar parts? Record some parts with more treble, then combine them with your "darker" recordings... mix, match... play with the different combos... combine with the J station tracks... find a good and different way of doing things, and in the search you may find that missing thing you were looking for.
 
Megagoo,

I listened to both clips and I liked both. I think I can tell you why you prefer the j-station sound. You play metal and it sounds more metal/modern than the miced cab, which sounds deliciously vintage/raunchy.

The problem is you are using v30s which are supposed to be for rock. and will make anything sound like vintage rock. Change to gt75s with the scooped sound and you will be hearing metal because they have the metal scoop.

I
 
to hear better what I am talking about, go to the celestion website and listen to their clips of different speakers doing different genres
 
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