Micing cabs vs. Amp Simulators

  • Thread starter Thread starter lttoler
  • Start date Start date
no more amp models for me.it seems to me like micing a 3 inch speaker through a crappy soundcard.if you used a cheap tubeamp to a nice soundcard it will fit the mix and save you hours or years of frustration.i have had much better results with a 199.00 dollar fender champ in the closet with packing blankets hung up.it would be good if everyone boycotted the stupid things so they would improve them or it could be they cant.:p. if you do not have the ear for getting the mic and eq right then you could have a freind do it.
 
This is a really stupid discussion. You can get a lot of servicable guitar sounds out of a pod. You have to work at it, but you can.

If it doesn't work for you, there could be a number of reasons. One of those reason could be that the tone you want isn't in there. But you could say that about 75% of the real amps on the planet. If you are looking for the sound of a fender twin, a JCM800 will be just as useless...

Again, anyone that knows they can tell the difference go to my site and tell me which sound clips are pod and which are real amps.

http://www.farviewrecording.com/html/sound_clips.html
 
Ive tried quite a few Amp and cab sims and for the most part they just didn"t cut it , they just had a thin , sterile sound , very digital .....

I recently got a new amp that has a DI out that has some analogue Speaker/Cab sims in line with it , it"s a feature mainly used for recording purposes but can also be used when playing through a speaker/cab, and these sims actually sound really good , they are very simple to use .....


:D
 
Farview said:
This is a really stupid discussion. You can get a lot of servicable guitar sounds out of a pod. You have to work at it, but you can.

If it doesn't work for you, there could be a number of reasons. One of those reason could be that the tone you want isn't in there. But you could say that about 75% of the real amps on the planet. If you are looking for the sound of a fender twin, a JCM800 will be just as useless...

Again, anyone that knows they can tell the difference go to my site and tell me which sound clips are pod and which are real amps.

http://www.farviewrecording.com/html/sound_clips.html
Click to expand...

I agree with this 100%
I would venture to say doing a double blind test with a Behringer Bass Vamp using one of its Brittish amp and cab sims up against the real thing no one could be able to tell the difference between the modeled track and the track that was micked.

but then again like you said if you cant get the amp tone you are wanting from the modeler then it is just not there to begin with.

I never had any issues of thin sounding or sterile sounding tracks using an amp modeler. I do however agree that some can sound a lot more digital than others if they are improperly EQ'd; the first and second generation pods come to mind but the newer pods as with the Behringer Bass V-Amp Pro and the Boss stuff I have used sound incredibly good.
If your tracks are sounding thin I contribute that to user error or the inability to properly set up the track.
 
I think its a redundant argument. Too many varaiables. There are old fuckers like myself who like the rattle and hum of old technology and get the results they need (or close to it) micing. Then there are those getting what they want using simulators, new technology etc etc.

Different strokes for different folks.

Saying that though, blanket generalisations like...

"So either:
A. you are tonedeaf
B. your amp sucks
C. you don't know how to mic an amp correctly
D. one or more of the above apply"

are clearly pointless and unhelpful.
 
Not even the best Guitar amp simulators do a job that will fool everybody...but the bass amp and Vocal preamp models are easier to make perfect since there are fewer of them...and niether type is near as colored as some guitar amps...but analog modeling is a great solution...I swear by Tech21 stuff.
 
Farview said:
This is a really stupid discussion. You can get a lot of servicable guitar sounds out of a pod. You have to work at it, but you can.

If it doesn't work for you, there could be a number of reasons. One of those reason could be that the tone you want isn't in there. But you could say that about 75% of the real amps on the planet. If you are looking for the sound of a fender twin, a JCM800 will be just as useless...

Again, anyone that knows they can tell the difference go to my site and tell me which sound clips are pod and which are real amps.

http://www.farviewrecording.com/html/sound_clips.html
Click to expand...

Farview - I'm at work, where all the speakers I have are the shitty ones built into my desktop. But, if I get a chance (and since I spend all day in front of a computer at work, I generally try to avoid them at home so it may be a while) I'll give your stuff a listen later on and see how I do.

Also, thinking about this over the weekend, it occured to me that really this is probably a pretty minor issue. My experience seems to be that the first thing people latch onto when trying to decide if it's a "good" recording or a "bad" one (or, at the very least, that I do) isn't the guitars, it's the drums. If you've got a kickass drum sound going, then the difference between a real Rectifier and a Line6 "Treadplate" isn't going to make or break a mix, or at least not to the same extent. Non-guitarist musicians might not even notice.
 
DrewPeterson7 said:
Also, thinking about this over the weekend, it occured to me that really this is probably a pretty minor issue. My experience seems to be that the first thing people latch onto when trying to decide if it's a "good" recording or a "bad" one (or, at the very least, that I do) isn't the guitars, it's the drums. If you've got a kickass drum sound going, then the difference between a real Rectifier and a Line6 "Treadplate" isn't going to make or break a mix, or at least not to the same extent. Non-guitarist musicians might not even notice.
Click to expand...
That is true. The funny thing is, you can get a more convincing Mesa sound out of one of the Fender patches than you can out of the "Treadplate". That's really the secret to getting a good sound out of it, you have to know what all the different components of a guitar sound are and how to put them together. Then you have to learn how to tell the unit what to do. The presets are just a lame starting point.
 
Farview said:
That is true. The funny thing is, you can get a more convincing Mesa sound out of one of the Fender patches than you can out of the "Treadplate". That's really the secret to getting a good sound out of it, you have to know what all the different components of a guitar sound are and how to put them together. Then you have to learn how to tell the unit what to do. The presets are just a lame starting point.
Click to expand...

That's not surprising at all - the earliest Mesa Mark I's were basically modified Fenders.
 
Many of us guitarists obviously prefer to use amps live and in full-service studios, but we're limited to modelers at home. As others have pointed out, families and neighbors matter. I just want to emphasize another obvious point here--tweaking a modeler helps, but I've found that no one modeler will do everything well even when tweaked.

As a long-time Fender and Musicman amp guy, I'd searched for a modeler that would give me a pretty solid Fender Twin sound, and I eventually found it in the Blackface '65 patch in the Johnson J-Station. I find most of the other amps there less inspiring, but man, that one alone was worth the price for me and my limited needs.
 
I was seeing the Jstation for under $100...so if you got one sound out of it you think is a twin...then its worth several times the price. :)
 
Wow- the debate rages on. Well, mostly, I'm an acoustic guitarist, but I used to play a lot more electric than I do now. That said, I record a lot of people, including some folks with some rather nice boutique amps. And I do have an iso box, not because I can't make noise, but because it reduces bleed in a small studio, if I'm doing the live studio thing. But I do play electric, and I played British invasion, The Beatles, The Who, and what have you for years. My belief is that modeling technology is a technology in its infancy, and like digital recording, it continues to improve.

It's weird, though- even after 7 years of doing it, I'm basically the only one. Do I use modelers?- Yes. Do I mike cabs? Yes. What makes me different is- I do it at the same time. First, I find a nice clean amp with no color, and no fan. Then I find a nice speaker designed for a broad spectrum of frequencies. Then I get one or more mics, and use a modeler to *move some air*. I usually select condensers, even small diaphagms, because I want to use something that responds to a little *less* moving air. I want to trick the preamp (and the listener) into believing that he's hearing a cranked up combo amp, but I want to do it at a much lower sound pressure level.

There's 2 basic setups I use more often than any others. First, I choose a modeler, either Pod Pro, Vamp 2, or occasionally even a pocket Pod. The line out goes to one of 2 basic signal chains. The first is a Carver PM125 power amp, bridged to 8 ohms, into a Fender 1X10 wedge monitor. The other is to an M-Audio SP5B and an SBX subwoofer. Then I mic the puppy(s) up. Usually the 1X10 gets mic'd up w/ an AKG C2000B at about 18" and an SM7b up close and personal. The studio monitors get mic'd with a B.L.U.E. Kiwi or a pair of Neumann KM184's. Occasionally, if I want a classic sort of sound, and I'm using a sim of a classic amp , I'll switch from studio to live mode, which disables the cab model, and jack the Carver into a 1X12 Marshall Cab with a Celestion vintage 30. Then I stick a cheap dynamic in front of it, SM57, D770, or D320B.

With broad spectrum speakers, like the wedge monitor, or the studio monitors, I can leave the cab model on, but the Marshall cab sounds like a 1X12 with a vintage 30 in it, and it does better with the cab model off. It is what it is, and its character will fight with the cab model, and neither one wins.

So what do I get this way? Does it sound exactly like the modeled amp? No. Does it sound like a DI recorded amp simulator? No. But it does sound *good*, if the settings are right, and the mics are in the sweet spot. In the end, I agree with both sides. You *can* get good tones out of an amp modeler, and for most applications, the sound of moving air hitting a microphone is a good thing, one that I have become used to hearing over many years. And sure, I might go DI for a scratch track if it's late at night, and I don't want to annoy my wife. But I just don't get why everybody seems to think that the only way to use an amp modeler is recording direct. Amp modelers and microphones *work fine together*.-Richie
 
I have always been a die hard mic the cab guy. When I needed to record some guitar parts without killing my neighbors I built an Iso Cab. Works great and is the perfect compromise to micing a cab and using a modeler. As far as modelers go, I have never heard a "great" distrotion tone from a modeler. Not saying it isn't out there somewhere. I just haven't heard one. I also have the Mesa Boogie recording preamp. It's good but not perfect.
 
Iso cab's were a brilliant idea...I just copied the Randall design and added a Vintage 30 and an SM57...solved bleeding issues...and you can let that amp crank...Ive never tried digital modeling on mine...but I should...I have Amp farm.
 
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