Mic with highest output and proximity factor?

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psongman

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HI, a year ago, I asked some group on the Net about a microphone that gave the highest output and I didn't have to get right up on it to get a decent sound. I lost the thread but know that you can help me in this forum because your mic wisdom is excellent.

So, I am looking for the above....I sing a lot of background in this band I am in and don't like getting right on top of the mic when I vocalize. I know that there are different outputs on mics....so what would be some mics for this purpose that I could get away with while singing background that I wouldn't need a preamp for but would not feedback if the gain was turned up on the mixer? I have to get one for next weekend so your feedback, haha, would be much appreciated. So, highest output, low proximity, decent price, thanks, psongman
 
you allways need a preamp.
live i assume?

check out the Electro Voice N/D series of mics.
good output for a dynamics, nice sound, and good rejection.
 
Highest output is determined by diaphragm size. The bigger the diaphragm, the greater the output. Proximity effect is a little harder to explain.

There are only three types of mics: pressure mics (omnidirectional), velocity mics (bidirectional), and pressure gradient mics (varying combinations of the first two types).

Omnidirectional mics respond only to air pressure changes, so there is no proximity effect (bass build-up as you get closer to the source).

Bidirectional mics respond only to air motion (velocity), so there is maximum proximity effect (bass build-up as you get closer to the source). At right angles to the mic, there is no air moving either the front or back surface of the microphone, and you have a null there.

Now, if you slowly add the output of an omni mic to the output of a velocity mic, here's what happens:

The null of the velocity mic starts to fill in, and move towards the back of the mic. At the same time the negative side of the bidirectional mic starts to get canceled out, while the front of the mic gets reinforced. And you start to lose some of the proximity effect of the bidirectional mic.

When 100% output of the omni mic is mixed with 100% of the bidirectional mic, you have a classic cardioid, with a big null at the back of the mics.

So, the type of mic you use depends on speaker placement, and mic polar patterns.

If the speakers are on either side of a velocity mic, they'll be nulled by the mic and you won't get much feedback. Hypercardioid mics work best when the speakers are about 135 degrees on either side of the back of the mic.

Just remember, as you go from pure pressure (omni) to pure velocity (figure 8 bidirectional), the proximity effect increases, and nulls begin to appear, first at the back, then they move forward till they're on the sides.
 
If this is for live use, and you don't want it to feed back ... then I'm afraid you're going to have to get used to just getting right up on the mic and tough it out. Sorry -- probably not what you wanted to hear.
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Oh boy, Harvey gave me the scientific approach, much appreciated, though. I do understand the dynamics (?) of the air movement and diaphragm displacement. I am hoping someone has owned a few mics that seem to need less gain, fader up, settings and sound decent live.

An added note, which condensors have high output for studio work, as I do record some, but just sold my last condensor to some lady who wanted my whole setup, that is why I am asking all these questions and replacing audio gear? Keep the info funneling in!

psongman
 
The Neumann TLM 103 has very high output, but i wouldn't want to use it on a live gig where someone might kick over the mic stand.

I agree with Giraffe - check out anything that uses a Neodymium magnet, like the EV N/D series, the Shure Betas, etc.
 
Harvey, does a bidirectional mic have more
proximity effect than a hypercardioid?

Am I correct in assuming that a hyper
has more proximity effect than a
cardioid?
 
psongman said:
Oh boy, Harvey gave me the scientific approach, much appreciated, though. I do understand the dynamics (?) of the air movement and diaphragm displacement. Keep the info funneling in!

psongman
Click to expand...

Maybe that was a little too technical? Try this:

> Harvey Gerst wrote:
>
A cardioid is a 50:50 mixture between pressure response (omni) and pressure gradient velocity response (figure-8). You can imagine a cardioid to be two microphones, one of each type, at the same point in space with their signals combined "in phase".

All velocity (pressure gradient) transducers have a 6 dB/octave rolloff at low frequencies; pure pressure transducers do not. Thus, as you go lower in frequency, at some point the contribution from the pressure gradient response begins to lessen; past that point, more and more of what you hear will be the contribution of the pressure response, which is omnidirectional.

A "wide cardioid" is simply a microphone in which the balance of pressure to pressure gradient is weighted more heavily toward the pressure component. As a result its output is influenced somewhat less by the pressure gradient component, which is the directional part.

What you need for stage work is more of the pressure gradient sound and less of the omni part of the signal. If you wanna kill the sounds coming in from the sides, use a figure 8 pattern. Sound coming in from directly behind the mic? Use a cardioid pattern. Sounds coming in from in between those two places? Use a hypercardioid pattern.
 
Brackish said:
Harvey, does a bidirectional mic have more proximity effect than a hypercardioid?

Am I correct in assuming that a hyper has more proximity effect than a
cardioid?
Click to expand...

Yes, you're correct on both assumptions.

A pure pressure gradient velocity mic (bi-directional) has the most proximity effect. A hypercardioid is next, then cardioid, then wide cardioid, then omni (with none). Since all the various pressure gradient patterns are just mixtures of pressure and velocity, they all have the most proximity effect in figure 8 mode and gradually decrease as the mode is switched to omni.

Look at the switch arrangements on any multi-pattern mic. They're all exactly the same: omni at one end, figure 8 at the other end, and cardioid in the middle.
 
cardiod pickup's have the least prox. effect up close as they are nearest to omni(which has none) compared to super or hyper. a mic that may fit the bill is the sennheiser E935. it has a very hot/strong output but you can back off a little and it will still sound decent. you could go down the handheld condenser road. audio technica make a decent one the AE5400. this has a cardiod pick up pattern and has a VERY loud out put which can be padded using a little swith on the mic to make its output more like standard mics.
 
All Condensers will have a Higher output than a Dynamic because they have a Built in Fet pre amp (Which is why you need Phantom power) so if you are uses to useing a Dynamic then you will notice quite a Bit higher output from a Condenser.....

maybe a good Multi Pattern condenser would be something to look in to or if your problem is that you don"t want to have to get really close to the mic when you sing then maybe get a headset mic that is wireless....

Just a Thought.....
 
The problem here is that if you want to be able to stand back from the mic in a live situation ... it's just not going to work the way you're envisioning it.

I mean I can see your thought process and your reasoning behind all of this, and in theory it sounds like a good idea and all.

But in practice, it's just not going to fall that way, and you really need to think all of this through. You're on stage, and everything up there is really loud. And if you want a mic that will allow you to stand back a ways from it and still sound decent, then you're going to need something sensitive with a fairly wide pattern ... which means it's going to pick up everything else along with your voice, including the monitor feeds, which is going to squeek and squawk like a pack of wild geese in heat.

Not to mention that it's going to pick up the crowd noise, the guy/girl singing next to you, along with the loud drum set behind you. If I were the sound guy in that situation, I would just turn your mic off altogether ... while giving you the thumbs up : "Sounds Great!" :D

I'm afraid you're just going to have to tough it out, be a man and get up on that mic. This has been a really great thread; very educational, but to steer things back to reality ... you need to give up on this interesting but very flawed notion you have of all of this. It's only going to create far more problems than you're currently hoping it might solve. And no, I'm not just trying to be negative; just hoping to save you a lot of headache in advance.
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Minion said:
All Condensers will have a Higher output than a Dynamic because they have a Built in Fet pre amp (Which is why you need Phantom power) so if you are uses to using a Dynamic then you will notice quite a Bit higher output from a Condenser.
Click to expand...
Huh? Did you really mean to say, "All Condensers have a built in FET preamp (which is why they need Phantom power)"?

I don't think so. There's are several threads around here (or go to some of the manufacturer's websites) that explain how condenser mics work.

Your explanation is a gross generalization - and it's wrong.

Here's a simpler (but more accurate) generalization:

http://www.homerecording.com/bbs/showpost.php?p=2101207&postcount=875
 
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One factor that might help in your search would be directional mics with the proximity effect designed out. The EV RE-20 and 15/16 too if I'm not mistaken are examples. Unlike the typical stage mic they would neither have the low lift up close (thus perhaps not sounding so 'close) or conversely, won't thin out as much backed off.
You could also work close with a typical mic with a low cut on, in that case the thin-out factor goes up when you back off.
There's some more variables for ya' to play with. :)
Wayne
 
a lot of stage vox mics have a "built in" low cut, so that they are are true only when inside the range of the proximity effect. (did i say that right?)

look at some of the for stage earthworks maybe?
 
The most fundimental reason why condensor mics need power, and dynamics don't, is that dynamic mics create an emf by way of a moving voice coil. Condenser mics work on a capacitive principle, and a capacitor can't do anything without a charge across it. As the plates of this "capacitor" move together and apart with the pressure fluctuations of an acoustic wave, the resulting change in capacitance creates a corresponding charge and discharge current.

Harvey - Great info, as always (who da man, you da man). I'll just point out that the coil on a dynamic mic does see the voltage from phantom power. It's just that it see's the same voltage on both sides of the coil, and therefore no potential exists across the coil, hence no current flows. I know you get that, I just want to clarify the point for anyone who might not.
 
HI, well, was busy over the weekend and finally was able to return and reread the dyno replies to my thread. I have figured a few things out from all your spouts of wisdom. I don't want a really tight fitting pattern mic, cardioid-wise, but one that will pick up my groanings from a close as I can get, yes, I did render Chessrock's findings.

I was considering those EV mics, the 767 and 967 but despite their high output, too directional, but the price looks right for what they deliver. I did try a SP B1, wow, for the money, the clearest cleanest one I have heard. I want to check out some of those AT ones recommended and the other EV ones I was directed towards. I will get back to you when I make up my mind but keep the flow coming in as I actually need a couple of mics for my musical mysteries, thanks again, psongman
 
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