Mic Reviews at Harmony Central!

[noisedude]

alright a hundred bucks then...and sell the stand separately.

 

[arcanemethods]

Of course the trick to selling those cheap budget mics is to trick people into thinking they are as good as other top name brand mics.

Care to explain in detail why that is not possible?


Bob

 

[ozraves]

where these reviews are good is in looking for defects and for reliability issues. if you see the same problems coming up again and again then that should be a warning sign. otherewise, everyone loves his own equipment.

rec.audio.pro on usenet is fairly reliable a place for user reviews as those other usenet guys will hold the reviewer accountable.

 

[DJL]

Care to explain in detail why that is not possible?


Bob

What's not possible?

 

[noisedude]

i think he meant he wanted you to say why it's not possible to make mics as good as expensive ones for $100. but i guess that doesn't really need answering *slaps head*

 

[Flatpicker]

...if you see the same problems coming up again and again then that should be a warning sign.

Very good point. Strength in numbers, so to speak...

 

[arcanemethods]

i think he meant he wanted you to say why it's not possible to make mics as good as expensive ones for $100. but i guess that doesn't really need answering *slaps head*

Actually, it does. I was hoping that DJL could provide some answers instead of his incessant questions and requests for information.

Yes, design of a good condenser mic is a difficult task but in the end there is hardly a simpler device (compare one to a sub $100 hard disk drive, for example) and with today's precision robotic manufacturing processes there is no reason at all that a better mic can't be produced by machines than by hand. With high enough production the price can be quite low without implying _any_ decrease in the quality of the product.

There is nothing about a mic capsule that presents even a modest challenge to existing precision production technology.


Bob

 

[cominginsecond]

Yes, design of a good condenser mic is a difficult task but in the end there is hardly a simpler device (compare one to a sub $100 hard disk drive, for example) and with today's precision robotic manufacturing processes there is no reason at all that a better mic can't be produced by machines than by hand. With high enough production the price can be quite low without implying _any_ decrease in the quality of the product.

There is nothing about a mic capsule that presents even a modest challenge to existing precision production technology.


Bob

Good point. I never thought of that. I would guess that the reason why really good mics are not yet being made at the sub $100 level is that the level of R and D dollars are not nearly as high for mics as they are for hard drives.

 

[alanhyatt]

There is nothing about a mic capsule that presents even a modest challenge to existing precision production technology.

Bob

Its not the ability to make it...its the ability to understand it, and to design it correctly. You just don't drill a backplate and slap them together. While some companies in China still do it that way, the good ones don't anymore.

 

[DJL]

Actually, it does. I was hoping that DJL could provide some answers instead of his incessant questions and requests for information.

Yes, design of a good condenser mic is a difficult task but in the end there is hardly a simpler device (compare one to a sub $100 hard disk drive, for example) and with today's precision robotic manufacturing processes there is no reason at all that a better mic can't be produced by machines than by hand. With high enough production the price can be quite low without implying _any_ decrease in the quality of the product.

There is nothing about a mic capsule that presents even a modest challenge to existing precision production technology.


Bob

Someone here once said Stephen Pual was the first to make 3 micron diaphragm, and Neumann had a hard time doing it... do you think there was any truth to that... and if not, does that mean the SPA diaphram is not really anything special?

 

[DJL]

Oops, sorry about that... it looks like Alan and I posted at about the same time... and I think Alan answered my question. Thanks Alan.

PS... how do the good companies do it? Thanks

 

[arcanemethods]

Someone here once said Stephen Pual was the first to make 3 micron diaphragm, and Neumann had a hard time doing it... do you think there was any truth to that... and if not, does that mean the SPA diaphram is not really anything special?

I find it unlikely that Stephan actually cast a 3 micron film but you never know. It may have been difficult to find a film strong enough to be tensioned to the proper compliance at that thickness, I don't know, but doing something the first time and reproducing it in manufacturing are quite different things.

What thinner diaphragms do is shift the knee where operation changes from compliance controlled to mass controled to higher frequencies. This allows the use of lower tension and higher compliance which increases the sensitivity of the mic as well as improving low frequency performance and reducing proximity effect.


Bob

 

[arcanemethods]

Good point. I never thought of that. I would guess that the reason why really good mics are not yet being made at the sub $100 level is that the level of R and D dollars are not nearly as high for mics as they are for hard drives.

Actually, very good mics are being produced at the sub $100 level. Yes, you have to anticipate a large enough production rate to spread the R&D costs and the tooling costs. The number of people buying these low cost mics is what is driving the cost reduction we've seen in the last few years, not compromises in quality. I don't think the end of that story has been written either.

I'd appreciate input from Alan as to the degree of automation employed in the production of his mics but I also appreciate the proprietary nature of such information.


Bob

 

[DJL]

I find it unlikely that Stephan actually cast a 3 micron film but you never know. It may have been difficult to find a film strong enough to be tensioned to the proper compliance at that thickness, I don't know, but doing something the first time and reproducing it in manufacturing are quite different things.

What thinner diaphragms do is shift the knee where operation changes from compliance controlled to mass controled to higher frequencies. This allows the use of lower tension and higher compliance which increases the sensitivity of the mic as well as improving low frequency performance and reducing proximity effect.


Bob

Thanks Bob, I love learning ... and I too wish Alan would focus on helping us learn rather than selling on this bbs because I think he could be a great asset. Peace

 

[arcanemethods]

What thinner diaphragms do is shift the knee where operation changes from compliance controlled to mass controled to higher frequencies. This allows the use of lower tension and higher compliance which increases the sensitivity of the mic as well as improving low frequency performance and reducing proximity effect.
[/B]

Or if you are willing to accept the same corner frequency for the LF rolloff, it allows the use of a smaller acoustic resistance in the back path which reduces the main source of acoustic Johnson noise and makes the mic quieter.


Bob

 

[Harvey Gerst]

And Stephen Paul wasn't the first to use 3 micron diaphragms in condenser mics; several small diaphragm mics with 3 micron capsules were already out on the market. Stephen was the first to figure out how to make a large diaphragm mic using a 3 micron diaphragm without the the capsule tearing itself apart or suffering from uneven tensioning.

He then went on to create large diaphragm capsules using 1 micron, .9 micron, and even .6 micron diaphragm materials. No one else has been able to produce a workable large capsule in those ranges.

 

[alanhyatt]

Thanks Bob, I love learning ... and I too wish Alan would focus on helping us learn rather than selling on this bbs because I think he could be a great asset. Peace

I am not selling on this BBS. Is there anyone out here on the BBS that thinks I am selling??? Set me straight. I have not done any promotion or selling for well over a year.

Look at the answers DJL, then get over it. I DO NOT SELL HERE, OR ANYWHERE ELSE!!!!!

 

[noisedude]

i don't see selling. i think he was suggesting you were criticising the competition, but to my mind it's up to them if they wanna come on here and take part in discussions!

you're well within your place to make the points you did IMO. you didn't diss anyone's company and i'm sure if a rep of another manufacturer/distributor was here they'd put their side of the story.

arcane - there's far more art to the production of musical equipment than there is for computer components. that, after all, is why purists still prefer analog recording methods!! a DA converter is essentially soulless whilst a vintage reel will instill its own sound! the money goes on the R+D i guess, not the physical process!

 

[arcanemethods]

arcane - there's far more art to the production of musical equipment than there is for computer components. that, after all, is why purists still prefer analog recording methods!! a DA converter is essentially soulless whilst a vintage reel will instill its own sound! the money goes on the R+D i guess, not the physical process!

Nah, they are just another widget subject to the same principles of cost reduction, manufacuring engineering and economy of scale as any other manufactured widget. I know how hard that is to swallow but it is the very reason we are seeing good mics for cheap. As I said earlier, the end of that is not yet in sight but I know we recordists will be delighted. Those, anyway, who can set aside the notion that it is alchemy. There are no spirits involved; it's physics all the way down.


Bob

 

[DJL]

Thank you Harvey for clearing that up... and refreshing my memory.

Its not the ability to make it...its the ability to understand it, and to design it correctly. You just don't drill a backplate and slap them together. While some companies in China still do it that way, the good ones don't anymore.

Alan it's good to see you here and willing to help us learn rather than selling, and I truley mean that, and if you'd relax and not miss read me you might find that I really don't hate you and who knows maybe some day we could even become friends. With that said... how do the good companies do it? Also, I've always wanted to know who designed the Studio Projects C1?

And...

I'd appreciate input from Alan as to the degree of automation employed in the production of his mics but I also appreciate the proprietary nature of such information.

Thanks