Mic pres: Spend $200 or $2,000 ? ? ?

  • Thread starter Thread starter chessrock
  • Start date Start date
The distortion on the vocal is part an intentional thing done at mix, and part a result of the mp3 encoding. It wasn't supposed to come out that distorted, and the original track isn't at all.

ART pre's. Drums and guitar ran through a 100' Horizon snake (track in a basement when I had my mobile rig.....I was out on the street during drum tracking...bass was overdubbed in the rig, but the guitars were in the basement...everything else was overdubbed is a throw together setup that we could go anywhere with...preamps in a rack, Mackie 1604 to monitor tracks (never used the pre's for tracking...yuk!!! I won't go THAT cheap sounding!!! ;)).

Type 1 ADAT's
Behringer Composers used at mix (oh, and one old AutoCom)
Symetrix 501 comp used here and there.
Behringer Gates used on the snare and tom WHILE tracking!!!
Lexicon LXP 1 and PCM 70 and PCM 42 and Alesis Quadraverb 2 for effects.

DDA console

Mixed down to a Fostex DAT player.

The 3 horn solos were on the same track of tape, so I had to run 3 compressors inline from the deck to the console and manually switch them for each solo while mixing....the eq tweeks for the solo's were fun to get done.

My point I can see is being understood. You can spend a whole lot of time TALKING about preamps, and which is the best deal blah blah blah, OR, you can just start recording and learn about the important stuff.

I worked with the other producer/tracking engineer on this mix, and compromises were made I was not happy with. The other guy was the guitar player in the band, and is an excellent tracking engineer. But, he is not what I would consider a very good mixing engineer, and usually he just send projects he tracks to me to mix. In this case, he just felt he needed to still have some control at mix time, so a lot of things that HE thought was going to work were done on this mix that I would have done. Oh well, that is how it works in recording when you are paid by clients.

Trust me when I say that the I was after an even MORE open sound while mixing, but had to start squishing stuff at the other producers call. The ART preamp's in many cases were allowing us to tracking much better levels to tape than the many Class A pre's that were available throughout the project so I don't blame them. The studio we mixed this at has an engineer who has tracked/mixed major label release stuff. When we brought in the tapes and played them just to hear what his room sounded like, he couldn't believe that we tracked this stuff on ADAT's, and used cheap mic pre's. Talk like that brings a smile to my face....:)

There is a splattering of Focusrite Red's, Neve, Demeter, API pre's on this CD. More than likely, the Rhodes on this cut used one of those, but then again, that was 4 years ago that we tracked this, so my memory of those occasional preamp's is vague.

Anyway, get yer butt's to tracking and forget about all this preamp talk. It is rubbish.

Eddie
 
--- New info from FMR Audio ---

Let me start off with a disclaimer. When products are still in development, anything can happen up until the moment it's released. A product may go through quite a few changes before the final product goes into manufacturing, and it looks like the RNMP is no exception. Thankfully, what usually happens is a product evolves into something better as it's developers discover new possibilities, etc.

As of now, it appears the RNMP's features will be scaled back a tad from what was previously reported, but get this... Two Channels now. I don't have anything more specific at this point, but by scaled back I don't mean less quality. I think they've done away with the two digit led gain indicator and the MIC/HI-Z Input Selector Switch. It's still the same signal path for the most, just less bells & wistles, and better integration with the RNC.

Bear in mind that this could change ten more times and the release date could be set back 6 months. FMR Audio made it very clear a while back that nothing is concrete until it ships. I for one am thankful, because I like the way its heading now better than before. I really like the idea of two pres in one box for the same estimated street price of $350-$400. What all this has also done is ready FMR Audio for a higher end mic pre down the road.

Release date is now estimated at 45 days. There will be more info as it develops, but let me say again, nothing is concrete until it ships.

Jake Langston
Humbucker Music
 
"monitors are your connection to reality"

so damn true. I'd take cheaper mics and preamps anyday to have accurate monitors that I trusted. It's not even a choice really...it's just a given. You are shit without good monitors ;)
 
sonusman said:


Anyway, get yer butt's to tracking and forget about all this preamp talk. It is rubbish.

Eddie
Click to expand...

Uh, yea, but Ed . . . this is the "Rack" forum. If you want to talk about recording techniques and tracking, you do realize where we're going to have to send your comments . . . :) :) :)
 
Well then maybe a better question would be "does the Minddbxgracemackie preamp LOOK better in a rack than the Alesisartbehringernady?"

;)

Or maybe "Will my brand X preamp that sounds about as good as any OTHER preamp fit in the same rack?"

:D

Or, "Should I even put my brand X preamp in a rack?"

:)

I should have waited for more wrong responses to the gear guess I asked for. I should have just posted that mp3 without giving ANY clue as to what kinds of gear was used. Now every moron who can't see the forest because of the tree's will state silly crap about "how much better it would have sounded with X brand preamp, or Y brand preamp".

I doubt that most of you would have guessed ANY of the gear used on that recording if I didn't give a clue, or you knew already what I have used for years.

I like hammering in this point. You gotta get in a USE gear and not TALK about it. When you USE it, you get better using it. Once you get better using it, you realize that it was never really WHAT you used, but rather HOW you used it!

Not trying to be too hard on you chessrock. BUT, maybe YOU should spend a little time sharing comments in the Techniques or Mixing forum and get your mind off of silly preamp comparisons! ;)

Eddie
 
just downloaded the song ed. but it stopped halfway. nice track..can i guess now?

i totally agree with sonusman. ed knows that i use the 3630 compressor sometimes because despite what people say on this thing, it DOES have some uses!! soooo many people have clocked onto one person giving it a hard time and then suddenly, everyone flames it. it's pathetic.


" You gotta get in a USE gear and not TALK about it. When you USE it, you get better using it. Once you get better using it, you realize that it was never really WHAT you used, but rather HOW you used it! "

i think that's a great sum up quote on gear. i remember the days when i had a really tiny setup. you learnt to get the most out of it, and get it to sound great.

ed, was this track picked up by any label then?

-Romesh
 
LongWaveStudio said:


ed, was this track picked up by any label then?

-Romesh
Click to expand...

I wish it was!!! We spent a good amount of time on that CD. Would have been about a $40k production in your studio (assuming rates of around $1k a day that is....we of course did it on about a $15K budget). There was some inquiry by a couple small independent labels that heard the CD through the grapevine, but by then the band was in total chaos. They broke up about 9 months after this CD was released. The other producer was shattered to have invested that much time and money into this project to have the band become a bunch of "how come we are only getting paid $50 a piece for this gig" primadonna's!!! It really sucked. Not ONE person in that band other than the guitar player (the other producer I speak of) put a DIME into this production, and it was almost appalling how unprepared most of them were to track, yet it was everyone else in the band that wanted to track the CD when we did. Me and the other producer didn't feel that band was ready for it yet (we knew what kind of time we would be spending just on production issues...) and wanted to do a couple of months of pre-produduction before going at it for real. But the guys thought they were hot shit "as is". That changed once tracking started....LOL

I was just listening to some stuff that a local songwriter wrote/produced, using Sonar, a cheap soundcard and mic, just last night. Me and my buddy were marveling at how good songs, good performances, and a little effort to TRACK the sounds that are necessary made a nice different in this demo this guy did. He made the best use out of cheap gear, and I have heard MANY productions done with all Class A gear that sounded like basement recordings with a cassette deck in comparison!

I like good gear like the rest of them. I just think sometimes that people expect that buying this or that preamp is going to all of a sudden make or break their production. Indeed, I appreciate a good preamp and get to work with nice one's all the time. But when I am rushed to do the production, the preamp winds up being the least of the problems! Having the time to mic up stuff properly is what I usually wish I had!!! Shit, give me a damn Alesis garbage console preamp and enough time and I will make it sound good! THAT is the bottom line.

Sigh....Guys!!! Don't fret over your preamp selection if you are just looking to do some demo work! An ART, Mackie, Behringer, etc...will all work JUST FINE, and really, you will benefit FAR MORE expanding your mic collection than fretting over getting just the RIGHT preamp!

Eddie
 
Yeah.

Definitely having more time to screw around with mic positions and placement in the room will have more of an impact on quality of sound--once youre using a decent pre. That point is not made enough, at least not as much as "what pre are you using?" I always wish I had more time for that and have been willing at times not to charge for the hours I spend experimenting with mic placement when clients get impatient. But the bottom line is, both are important. Everything is important. Getting levels hot enough going in, creative panning, knowing what to overcompress and what not to, watching a singer during the take and directing him/her to move closer or further from the mic to optimize breathiness and bass response, when to sing off axis, etc. All that shit is crucial but more particular. Good mic sand pres are a universal to whatever kind of recording youre doing. Mediocre pres can make the dif bet a rec thats at 75% and one thats at 90%.
 
I think you are giving preamps WAY too much credit.

But I agree it just doesn't start with the mic and placement of it. It is the mic and placement of it IN CONTEXT. There are times when you HAVE to dirty up the sound, or use a mic placement (or mic!) to solve PERFORMANCE issues! If the performer is not skilled in the recording environment the track is toast anyway, regardless of ANY gear used. But, you can sometimes "hide" certain aspects of a bad performance. I do that all the time in mixing. It is hard to explain, so I won't try. If you have mixed a lot of bands and made them happy, you will know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

So yes, PRODUCING the performer is a huge part of the end products quality and I suppose that is ultimately what I get back to. You can either pull out the performance somehow or you can't, and doing so is an art all in itself, and is mostly overlook. It would seem people can become a Rip Rowen if they own this or that piece of gear. Endorsements are thrown around like crazy, yet many of the very skilled people in the business don't agree on gear usage, and claim to use the same piece of gear for different specialties! Interesting eh? But you know, if they broke it all down, they would be saying the same thing I am getting at here. The gear matters far less than the skills. Buy all the classA gear you want. If you don't know WHAT sounds good, or how to get a good sound, or identify a great performance, tuning issues, gain issues, etc etc etc...you are fucked. Your stuff will ALWAYS sound like an amature did it. Why waste your time and money of even modestly good gear that will make little difference in your outcome?

Eddie
 
Lay off Ed, it's a lot easier to talk about recording than it is to come up with something worth recording ;)
 
thanks Tex ...

... let's talk about recording.

How does it work?
 
sonusman said:
Not trying to be too hard on you chessrock. BUT, maybe YOU should spend a little time sharing comments in the Techniques or Mixing forum and get your mind off of silly preamp comparisons! ;)
Click to expand...

Man, I was just messin' with you for you always give us flack for a particular thread being in the wrong forum. :)

I do appreciate your comments, though, Ed. I think what I've been saying all along is that, in a massocistic way, I actually enjoy talking about various products, how they are marketed, and what our reactions are to them. I've thoroughly enjoyed the responses, and I actually couldn't agree with them more.

I suspect the subject of preamps in the "in-between" price range is a pretty hot topic these days for a lot of people. And judging from the amount of responses to this thread, I'm starting to believe my suspicions to be accurate. I find it very interesting.

My original reasoning behind posting that long rant wasn't because I'm losing sleep about preamps. I find it interesting, and I love to write. You might even notice that I actually HAVE been writing some stuff lately on mixing, geared towards the newbs. And I've been recording a lot more, as of late, and my work's improving. If I could be writing magazine articles, I would. Maybe I'll be Ethan in my next life. I can still get the writing itch out of my system on boards like this one. I can talk about my two favorite topics: business (marketing) and audio on the same board.

Okay, besides football that is. But don't worry: I'm already living out my Sports Writer fantasies on another board, so you don't have to worry about me ranting on about the upcoming draft, or what color uniform Drew Bledsoe will be wearing this season. :)
 
By the way, anyone from Florida think that Phillip Buchanon will make a decent first-round pick?
 
Ahhhhh.....I understand more fully now. I suppose I am hitting this one hard because so many people DO take this whole preamp thing far too seriously sometimes.

Funny the projects that sound best to my ears I have ever worked on were the ones where I spent the most time! :) But, I HAVE got to spend some good quality time on some stuff using mostly class A's, and frankly, there were times I was using them when I SHOULD have been whipping out the ART! I am not convinced that high dollar preamps are always going to give the best results for a production. BUT, I have enough experience using ALL levels of preamps to be able to give that asessment. It is the guy who DOESN'T have ANY involved experience with preamps that I am thinking about here, and I guess I am STRONGLY trying to make the point that they are going to benefit from a good mic, good monitors, good source sounds, and good playing more than the difference between an ART and a Drawmer, or a Mackie and a Oram, or a Pro pre (Soundcraft) and a Focusrite! Yes, there ARE issues between the different preamps, and each has things is does and doesn't do so well. But until people can HEAR the difference, it will be lost upon them.

I see guys considering buying Avalons who are also asking what the difference between balanced and unbalanced, -10 and +4 operating levels, and how to "align" their monitors!!! That is the extreme!!! Man, they have enough problems just working out ground loops because they have their freaking monitor for their DAW on a different circuit than the audio chain. Or a small apartment bedroom that has low-mid nodes that are making their monitors lie is a major way. This is probably the same guy that wants this Avalon to record on his Turtle Beach card, and is convinced the the NT1 sound as good as a C12! Do you think that the Avalon is the best place for him to spend money right now? :D

I want to REALLY HAMMER IN THE POINT that you don't need high dollar preamps to make recordings that SOUND like you might have used high dollar preamps! And the fact is that you find that you can make due for a long time with cheaper preamps. Yes, a NEVE is going to sound great. But is it $1100 BETTER than an ART? If you have never used both, you wouldn't know.

Funny, because I am becoming less and less of a gear snob than I used to be as I have less and less gear I actually own....LOL

Anyway....

Eddie
 
Alot of people swear by the preamp as being the most important aspect of the signal chain to shell out the $$.

Although I might be inclined to agree only modestly with that, I still think the biggest scam of the audio industry is the a/d converter. I'll buy ten $2,000 preamps before I even look at one $1,000 a/d converter.

As it stands, my money right now is going in to better accoustical treatment, which I'm sure I'll get a lot more mileage out of than either.
 
I think the good thing about discussing gear is getting bang for your buck.I agree that your average homerecordist (like me) does not need high end gear until we learn the gear we have but even bottom feeder type pre's all not all built the same and do not all give the same value for your money.As a man on a very limited budget,every $100 I spend is important and should be spent as wisely as possible.

For example,the Art Tube MP.I know you used it Ed,and can get very good results from it as can some others who use it.I'm not a fan of colored preamps,(remember I'm discussing cheap pres here)I prefer any coloration to come from my mic,mic placement etc.I do have an Art Toob MP and I do use it for a DI sometimes but as a mic pre I leave it alone.I'm not saying that I will never use it as a pre because as an effect on some track in might be usefull.The preamp that I like is the M-Audio Audio Buddy.Two channels,solid state,very clean and quiet for $80.Lots of dead quiet gain,for good or bad my mics sound like themselves.I paid $100 for the Art a few years ago and for $80 I got two channels of mic pres that are more to my taste.For me the Audio Buddy had much more value,it was money better spent.


Another example of how gear discussion can be useful;a couple years back I bought a Mxl2001p mic based mostly on reviews in Recording magazine.I have no way to try mics and at the time I was not online so I didn't have access to people who have used the mic.Turns out magazine for the most part give reviews to sell advertiser space and the Mxl2001p is a POS.If I had access to these forums back then I would never had bought the 2001p(and I paid $200 for it!!groan..).


While I do agree that with most people G.A.S. gets out of hand,I think gear discussions serve a valuble purpose.
 
The beauty of this discussion is it first raised some interesting points about pre's. Then Herman and Ed came along and put it all in perspective. Hell, I'm sure this thread has now persuaded some users to reallocate resources from pre's to something more useful like mic's or monitors.
 
Yup.

>Then Herman and Ed came along and put it all in perspective. Hell, I'm sure this thread has now persuaded some users to reallocate resources from pre's to something more useful like mic's or monitors.<

Leave it to Ed to be the voice of reason, good on ya man.

I tease a buddy of mine here at work all the time. He was forever chasing that "next great piece of kit, " and never actually recording anything. For a while everytime he would mention skyline diffusors or digital patchbays or pre-amps, I would respond with; "Awesome! that'll make the music you aren't recording sound much better!" At first he was pissed at me, now he's making music and thanking me.

I've said it before...The best pre-amp in the world is the one that you have.

Tom Cram
dbx Senior Technical Support
(801) 568-7530
tcram@dbxpro.com

If we don't believe in freedom of expression for people we despise, we don't believe in it at all.
-Noam Chomsky-
 
Ok...Ok all of you back off......

I will have to show another side as who can take anything seriously from a guy called Eddie and Cram........;)

I have said this many a times......
If your recording at home for your friends and demos and such then it is a total waste of money top buy anything above $200.

If you have the highest expectations for audio in almost a spritual way and you hear things with in a deeper relm of sound then a $2000 pre will bring you there.

The question is - is all this important to your song and the feel you want to bring across.

The answer might be no, but if "SOUND" is an issue then the whole chain from mic to pre to.....adds up to single heavenly sound that can NOT be reached by a $200 pre.
 
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