Mic positions on drums

  • Thread starter Thread starter Br3n
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thats a fairly good sized room. think my room is like maybe 4.5/5 metres by maybe 5/5.5 metres so fairly small but again treatment is mainly up high. got rock wool in the ceiling and 4 panels on the ceiling to help with thee room. i have kept it there as i am getting good results with that. the drums sound controlled with the space to breathe. guitars sound fine and bass does to. vocally sounds very good no room in the sound at all so gunna keep it there for a while see what results i get over the next few months. got an acoustic act coming in over xmas and new year so that will show the flaws a little so will do more after that if need be.

how is the steven slate stuff? i am currently using drumagog 4 with a decent library and some of my own samples as i record more drums iam sampling them for raw tones to shape as needed.
 
thats a fairly good sized room. think my room is like maybe 4.5/5 metres by maybe 5/5.5 metres so fairly small but again treatment is mainly up high. got rock wool in the ceiling and 4 panels on the ceiling to help with thee room. i have kept it there as i am getting good results with that. the drums sound controlled with the space to breathe. guitars sound fine and bass does to. vocally sounds very good no room in the sound at all so gunna keep it there for a while see what results i get over the next few months. got an acoustic act coming in over xmas and new year so that will show the flaws a little so will do more after that if need be.

how is the steven slate stuff? i am currently using drumagog 4 with a decent library and some of my own samples as i record more drums iam sampling them for raw tones to shape as needed.

Sounds like you have a handle on your treatment. Still, we both have issues.

I could not do what I do without the Steven Slate Trigger stuff. I have all of the upgrades.

I tried out Drumagog years ago. Not even comparable IMO.
 
I haven't put a mic on a tom in a long time.

My philosophy is to use as few mics a possible, to give better control, to minimize phase issues and to maximize my limited boutique mics and preamps.

Try micing your kit with just OHs and Kick mic and maybe not even a snare mic. If the drum does tom fills, you can just ride the faders.

Don't assume more mics = better sound.
 
And here is another point. I mostly use a 57 on a cab. But it takes some careful placement to make it sound right. It will sound 'scratchy' as hell in the wrong place. Many times I will use a 421 as well. Still, the same issues with placement. A ribbon mic back a foot or two can give a smoother natural tone IME, but I cannot say that I have had any luck with a condenser mic for a defined/up front guitar tone.

Again, this is just my experience and not a judgement. I could just be doing things wrong and you are giving me a new option.

I will have a better opinion if I were able to hear what is working for you. :)

its all at the studio. i am back at home now so once i am in next il bounce an unmastered rough mix down to post.

i have taken a liking to condensers on guitars aslong as the mic is away from the cab say 6-10 inches or so. i am getting a really good natural sounds. i dont like close micing a guitar amp. i never get the results i want. i also tend to mic mid cone rather than centre or edge. get a nice balance there. i also eq a bit on the desk to cut unnecessary low end.

i dont have a ribbon mic to play with at the mo with be a purchase down the line.
 
Sounds like you have a handle on your treatment. Still, we both have issues.

I could not do what I do without the Steven Slate Trigger stuff. I have all of the upgrades.

I tried out Drumagog years ago. Not even comparable IMO.

yeah would love a larger room. would be soo good.

yeah as i dont use samples that often i havent really ran into any issues so far. i am starting to get better results from samples but never really a natural sound hence why i make more effort to get it write from the drums themselves.
 
I haven't put a mic on a tom in a long time.

My philosophy is to use as few mics a possible, to give better control, to minimize phase issues and to maximize my limited boutique mics and preamps.

Try micing your kit with just OHs and Kick mic and maybe not even a snare mic. If the drum does tom fills, you can just ride the faders.

Don't assume more mics = better sound.

my first steps to mixing after micing and recording is to start with over heads then bring up what needs to reinforce them and most the time the toms sound week in the overs.
 
yeah would love a larger room. would be soo good.

yeah as i dont use samples that often i havent really ran into any issues so far. i am starting to get better results from samples but never really a natural sound hence why i make more effort to get it write from the drums themselves.

I'm not sure I got this point across; the best use of SS Trigger for live drums in your case (which I am only assuming) is that ability to use your actual recorded drum as a sample. You record the drum itself (previous to tracking the drums-think soundcheck), then export it as a wav file. Use the program included with SS Trigger to create a sample. Then you use Trigger on a duplicated track to introduce the sample that you created as enhancement for the recorded drum tracks. It works by triggering from audio tracks and is sensitive to the attack of the hit. Not a drum program.

I tend to use more of the included samples, but that is just the genre that I work with.

Sorry if I am being redundant, but you spoke of getting great separation of your tracks. This is how I accomplish that without fail.

Just trying to be clear and am in no way trying to tell you what is right for you.
 
I'm not sure I got this point across; the best use of SS Trigger for live drums in your case (which I am only assuming) is that ability to use your actual recorded drum as a sample. You record the drum itself (previous to tracking the drums-think soundcheck), then export it as a wav file. Use the program included with SS Trigger to create a sample. Then you use Trigger on a duplicated track to introduce the sample that you created as enhancement for the recorded drum tracks. It works by triggering from audio tracks and is sensitive to the attack of the hit. Not a drum program.

I tend to use more of the included samples, but that is just the genre that I work with.

Sorry if I am being redundant, but you spoke of getting great separation of your tracks. This is how I accomplish that without fail.

Just trying to be clear and am in no way trying to tell you what is right for you.

No this is good advice mate. Think il trial it next time I am in to record. Never really thought of doing it that way at all.
 
So just made a large purchase of mics last month so the past few weeks has been trialling them to see what we get.

What do you guys do with mic positions. I have started placing tom mics on the bottom rather than the top and I am getting much bigger sounding toms that cut through a lot better.

Kick drum I am only placing just inside the drum skin and getting much better attack than ever before.

What sort of thing does every one do and do regularly to get the recordings you are happy with

One thing that isn't clear are these 2 headed toms or single headed. If single then that is a very common practice; if dual then I've never heard of that but why not. I tend to get most of my sound from the overheads anyway and generally use the tom mikes for body so in that sense this should work pretty good.
 
If I can jump in there, I must admit it's a first for me to read that bottom-miked toms "cut through the mix". The bottom head is the resonant head so generally, and from my experience, there's nothing but resonance down there. However, when I thought about it, depending on how the rest of this mics are set up, he may be getting a fuller bottom end from the close tom mics and then the attack from the over heads. It would just depend on how well the attack is coming through the overheads versus how much of the bottom mics he blends in. It's certainly not impossible. One question to the OP, though. Did you flip the polarity on the bottom tom mics?

Myself? Depending on what's available at the given studio, I'll use the best of the selection. At my own place I've been loving an LDC (Rode NTK - it's got a great low end with a nice scoopy sound) on the floor tom, and AKG C1000s on the rack toms. People diss the C1000 a lot but I believe that's just because it's a cheap mic that finds it's way into the hands of a lot of beginners. I find it very useful on toms and guitars as well. Horrible on overheads, though. But I digress...

For snare I use good old SM57s - top and bottom. If I want a brighter under-snare sound, I'll use an AKG c418. I also use the c418 on high hat, miked pretty close. They've got a great natural bass roll off. They can be a little bright though so I usually high shelf it down a little bit.

For the kick I use another c418 inside, usually clipped to the internal dampening, for the attack of the kick. At the hole I'll use the D112 or an SM7 for the low stuff. This is just the SM91/Beta 52 approach with different mics. I prefer the AKGs though, to be honest.

As overheads I use the same mics I've used for years - two Neumann TLM103s. People diss this mic a lot on GS too but I don't hear anything wrong with them. I personally don't think the top end is as brittle and hyped as everyone claims. I use them on vocals as well, though, and they can approach brittle territory with some sibilant singers, but for drum overheads they rock.

Where do I put them? That's the tough part. I put them where they sound best, as trite as it sounds. Generally the drums are set up in the same spot in my studio so there are some trends. First I'll start with the overheads. I want to make sure the overall tone between them is consistent. For instance, if the right side is close to a glass window it may be brighter. If its close to a boundary, the bass may be accentuated. Once I get the overheads in the position I want I just take it one mic at a time and when I'm satisfied with its position, I'll move on to the next one. If there's bleed I don't want, I'll move the mic until I get the desired balance of tone and bleed. It's really not rocket surgery. If you listen and know how to make the right decisions to better the situation, it's pretty smooth sailing. I also think knowing your microphones really well is key. Like their polar patterns, overall tonality, etc. I certainly wish I had many more mics than I do now. They're like colours in the palette. But when you're forced to work with what you got, sometimes you get creative and it works. I know lots of guys are probably reading my post and going, "c418s???" Yup, they work, I'm tellin ya. If you need more attack on ANYTHING, particularly when mixing them with other, more rugged sounding mics, they rock. They're good on hi hat because of their natural bass rolloff. It starts at like 500Hz at about 6dB/Oct. They're bright, yeah, but sometimes you need bright!

Cheers :)
 
If I can jump in there, I must admit it's a first for me to read that bottom-miked toms "cut through the mix". The bottom head is the resonant head so generally, and from my experience, there's nothing but resonance down there. However, when I thought about it, depending on how the rest of this mics are set up, he may be getting a fuller bottom end from the close tom mics and then the attack from the over heads. It would just depend on how well the attack is coming through the overheads versus how much of the bottom mics he blends in. It's certainly not impossible. One question to the OP, though. Did you flip the polarity on the bottom tom mics?


Cheers :)

Its voluble skinned toms. I did it as a trial and got better results than micing the top skin. The polarity was flipped so no phase issues where present.

They where full sounding with enough attack to cut through unusual I know but worked well il post a sample when I can get one :)
 
To cool Jim. :thumbs up: ;)

LOL! Not to say that I am cool, but I have found a way to make things 'cool' for me.

That being said, there is much ado about Mo Fact's statements about 'trends'. Over time, you tend to learn what works in your particular room and the genre of what it is you are recording. Even then, no player or instrument sounds the same-so, you make changes to work with the particular situation.

Moresound gave me some recent clarity as to what a 'great' overhead mic sounds like, in comparison to crappy ones. He loaned me two Earthworks SR69's. Now I need to refinance my house. lol! Seriously, the clarity given with a great pair of overheads completely changed my perspective on how I would go about micing/enhancing toms. I am now shopping/searching for the same or equal pair of overheads. --oh hey, I texted you Henry...

I am looking forward to hearing your results from your technique Br3n. There are no wrong ways of doing anything if it works for you. :)
 
... the best use of SS Trigger for live drums in your case (which I am only assuming) is that ability to use your actual recorded drum as a sample. You record the drum itself (previous to tracking the drums-think soundcheck), then export it as a wav file. Use the program included with SS Trigger to create a sample.

So I'm curious...how easy/hard is it to actually create your own drum samples with SST?
Mind you, I haven't created my own sample in years....and the last thing I used was an Akai S1000HD sampler, and while recording wasn't the hard part, creating the sample with the tails, crossfades and loops was not 1-2-3.

Now it may be that things have come a long way and SST just takes whatever you record and does all the work for you...but I would like to know how/what you really do with SST to create individual samples of each drum so that when they trigger, there are no flaws/artifacts/clicks/etc....????

While I do have a growing library of drum samples with my Superior Drummer, I would like to sample the bunch of snares I have, and some of the other drums from my kit, and of course, my HH and cymbals, which I really like a lot.
If SST does it 1-2-3...I may have to get a copy. :)

Tell me more....'cuz you're so cool, Jimmy. :D
 
Naw man, I'm not so cool. :D

Here is a pic of the SDT Instrument Editor. All you do is export a wav file of your sample. Or export multiple file samples for layering. Obviously edit and export the samples from the initial transient. Open the Slate Digital Trigger Instrument Editor. Select your wav files in the left pane and drag them to the right column. That easy. Then you just insert Trigger on a track and it gives you all of the options as if it were one of the stock Trigger instruments.
 

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Obviously edit and export the samples from the initial transient.

That's what I was curious about....how much you have to prep the recorded WAV so that the attack and tails work perfectly as samples, regardless of how they are then played via MIDI....and like how you set different velocities for the same sound...and what controls the sample length, so that when triggering it at different BPM, it plays right, regardless.

I guess SST just does some of that work for you behind the scenes...?
 
That's what I was curious about....how much you have to prep the recorded WAV so that the attack and tails work perfectly as samples, regardless of how they are then played via MIDI....and like how you set different velocities for the same sound...and what controls the sample length, so that when triggering it at different BPM, it plays right, regardless.

I guess SST just does some of that work for you behind the scenes...?

Nada. I just do a micro 'fade in' to the sound I export to avoid any kind of artifact, and just let the tail ring out. Trigger seems to allow the tails of each sample to continue, even after a new hit is triggered. At least in a realistic way. There may be some behind the scenes workings as I have never heard a fast triggering sound un-natural. It just seems to work.
 
I've never tried the STT but I've got my own way of blending samples in with live drums.

I use Smart Electronix's KTDrumTrigger. It's free but don't let that fool you, it's very powerful:

KTDrumTrigger%20ScreenShot.png


I know I've mentioned it before but I find it useful because I can use any drum sampler like Battery, or Steven Slate Drums in Kontakt, or pretty much any VSTi drum sampler. You can also make your own samples and load them in your favorite sampler, like Battery for instance. For those of you not familiar, KTDrumTrigger has a vast and highly configurable detector section that outputs MIDI data to a selectable note on a MIDI track. You simply set the input of the MIDI track from the plugin which shows up in the available MIDI inputs.

You can further enhance its detection by using a transient designer plugin to boost the attack and shorten the release to make its detection more accurate. I usually limit the resulting exaggerated peaks with an L1 limiter if I want to effectively reduce the dynamic range of the resulting MIDI data. KTDrumTrigger tracks the dynamics of the incoming audio transients and assigns each note discrete velocity. Using the transient designer with the L1 keeps the transients short and sharp while keeping the extraneous ones from jumping up too high. It's sorta like the MIDI compressor in Cubase.

Oh, I'll also usually duplicate the track I want to trigger and strip silence to get rid of all the extraneous noise in between hits. This process may sound convoluted but once I've set my track presets up, it takes literally minutes to accomplish, on top of doing a single pass through the song, of course.

What I like about writing the trigger data to MIDI is that it opens up all sorts of MIDI data processing tools. You can manipulate velocities of single hits and shift whatever you need to around to achieve the sound and dynamic you want. Like I said already I like having the option to use any VSTi I want, which doesn't have to be limited to drum sounds exclusively. You can move the notes around to trigger special effects, you can duplicate the MIDI track and output it to another sampler to blend more sounds, particularly in electronic music that blends a lot of synthetic sounds with real drums. I'm telling you, the options are endless and in my opinion, beats plugins, like STT and Drumagog etc, that are dedicated exclusively to drum replacement and blending. I just find it more flexible.

Cheers :)
 
Gents this is what I have so far please excuse the timing on the guitar track as it was a guide track. So it's not perfect but what do you think of the drums? Still not fully mixed as waiting to track the rest of the song but please fed back will be greatly received

 
Sounds like quite well captured tracks. I would absolutely do some timing editing however. There is quite a bit of sloppy playing in there.
 
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