Mic Overload! Help!

M

mam

The Round Mound of Sound
Hello there,
Been recording a gospel group and they have two singers who could be the next Robert Plant or Michael Bolton in the output department. Can't get a totally clean vocal to save my life. Trying to compress with a dbx 166xl doesn't help. Then I tried an Alesis 3630 .... i know, I know. Was using a Studio Project B3 ... then I tried an AKG 3000, then I went to a Shure SM7A. Everytime they let it rip the mics would overload. Attenuation does not help. This is happening before the signal gets to the board. No overload lights on the console, no overload at the adats or the pc software. I even tried a Shure SM57. Nope! Sounds great until they open up the mouth bigtime. Tried moving them back a few feet when they get loud ... helped but didn't fix it! Plus I was getting more sound from the room. If they move back much further there won't be any of them in my monitors or their headphones. These people sing great & I really want the finished product to shine but this is gonna ruin it. Anybody have some suggestions?

mam
 
Question

What are you using for a preamp?
I have only rarely been able to find a singer who could put a good quality mic into blocking.( but has happened on my AT-4033)
I have found if you are running your channel fader much past unity setting you can overdrive the channel strip op-amps it will sound horrible but wont show on any meters. It happens all the time on my Mackie VLZpro.
 
I'm Laughing at me!

You must have been answering my post while I was editing!
Anyway, I have a newer Mackie 1604 VLZ pro,I usually use the direct outs 1-8 so what determines the amount of signal sent to my sound card is a combination of gain and channel slider.

I have found that if I push the fader up past unity, on louder input sources it is easy to get distortion. It bugged the crap out of me for a while because I could not tell where it was originating. I tried many mic / compressor combos but when I noticed how high I had my slider I brought it down to below unity just a little and the distortion went away,even after raising the gain to make up for the drop in signal.

I went to a stand alone pre (FMR RNP) and was able to get a much better signal before overload than my Mackie.
 
Sounds to me like a classic case of preamp input overload... Although I admit that I've never had a singer overload the input of any preamp when using a 57 with its very low output... I guess it could happen though!

But, you usually know if preamp input overload is the culprit, because you usually find you are barley cracking the preamp knob and you're already getting TONS of gain!

So, you know the Mackie 8-Bus preamps have a max. input of +14dBu (referenced to 0.775V), while the Mackie XDR pres in the VLZ-PRO boards have a max. input of +22dBu.

By the way, the RNP tmix talked about has a max. input of +27.5dBu! The current OSA preamps have a max. input of +32dBm (referenced to 1mW) and the DaviSound "Mic-All" preamps have a max. input of +32dBV (referenced to 1V)!

And these figures are with no pad!

As a VERY effective alternative, as opposed to the cost of a new preamp, is the Shure A15AS switchable pad. However, with -15dB being the lowest setting, that's already quite significant! I wish the lowest setting was more like -10dB. Maybe even a couple dB lower!
 
Thanks for the input guys. I think I'll try the Shure adaptor first & see what happens. I never thought they could overload the 57, but it's there when you listen. Nothing was clipping at the board, the a/d converter (Alesis AI-3) or the soundcard (Yamaha DSP Factory). If that don't do it. I'll look into getting an outboard preamp. If THAT don't do it, I'm opening up a Pizza Shop instead!
Thanks again,
mam
 
Mackie vs RNP

Hey, tmix. I've been wondering about the RNP compared to my Mackie VLZ pro preamps, especially for female vocalist and stereo solo acoustic guitar. Any insight into this? Thanx.
 
MAM,

I assure you, there is not any lights , whistles or bells to show you you are overdriving the output circuitry of your channel strip. All the metering is at the input stage, if you have a strong input and max your channel fader really high you are distorting the output circuitry of that indivdual channel,you have to use your ears.

ALBERTPIKE,
I first bought the RNP / RNC combo for the very purpose you mention. 90% of what I record is acoustic type music.
When I first got the pre I expected the world to change (audio wise) and was disappointed. When I came back to earth and realized what I had I was very impressed. The Mackie pres are decent,fairly clear, but a little flat dimensionally. The RNP has gobs more dynamic room to them. The voices sound much fuller through the mid range without any harsh highs or muddy lows.
Acoustic guitars have MUCH more depth and 3 dimensionality.
Surprising enough the biggest difference I encountered was recording a Kursweil electric piano. I used the pre for some overdubs and they were so much fuller I had to re-record the whole track because it did not sound like the same instrument.

What you will notice is when you start layering a bunch of tracks, the sound you have gotten with the RNP wont make your mix cloudy, you will have to EQ none to little, your soundstage will remain more dimensional. I love it. About the only other pres I would be personally interested would be the Davisound pres or possibly the Syteks or upcoming Toft atc-2.

tmix
 
tmix said:
MAM,

I assure you, there is not any lights , whistles or bells to show you you are overdriving the output circuitry of your channel strip. All the metering is at the input stage, if you have a strong input and max your channel fader really high you are distorting the output circuitry of that indivdual channel,you have to use your ears.
Click to expand...

But if you look at the 8-Bus signal diagram, you see that the OL led monitors from 3 different places... Right after the preamp before the Insert, right after the EQ section, and right after the fader.

If you look at the 1604 VLZ-PRO signal diagram, you see that the OL led monitors right after the EQ section.

I'm talking about preamp input overload; which would mean before it even gets out of the preamp. Not to say that is the problem, but it kinda sounds like it... If it's not showing up on the 8-Bus OL led.
 
Cool mam! I have a pair here I've always kept around since getting my DaviSound TB-1 preamp. VERY useful when miking a drum kit with hot condensers as overheads into theTB-1 or close-miking the snare and kick with dynamic mics into the TB-1.

But again, usually you know if it's a preamp input overload problem because usually you hardly have the preamp control cracked and there's alreay TONS of level.
 
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