Mic my Piano

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gd315

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What's the best way to Mic my Piano...Yamaha Grand 5"10"? I have a couple of pretty-good Mics...Shure 8800A, Cardioid, 50-15,000 Hz.
Mostly what I get is a "booming" Bass. I've tried several positions...in close...under the lid.
 
Nice site. I had the same question with a Kawai RX2. My printer's been busy.
 
Treeline,

I am interested in Kawai RX-2s and recording my piano playing. This is a unique chance for me that I met your post on this forum. Could you please give some information about the microphones you use/planning to use and sound quality you get/expect to get when recording your piano. I primarily intend to use my computer's sound card for recording.

Hakki.

[This message has been edited by Hakki (edited 05-22-2000).]
 
Hi Hakki-

I'm a recording newbie and acoustic guitar nut. So my "advice" (to stretch a word) in this area will just be more questions. But this is a great place to learn!

All I have at this point for microphones is the basic of the basics - A Sure SM57 and an Access-1 (Sure budget brand). And I am just beginning to fool around with anything resembling *recording*. BUT - one thing I want to do is get that piano down on something!

My plan is to fool with two mics on booms coming in from the right. The DPA site illustrates two ways to do it (they are using Real Mics, of course) with first the mics parallel to each other and alternatively, with them crossed at about 110 degrees.

People tell me what makes sense, in that the room in which the piano sits will affect the sound. Duh. BUT - that is subtle and will take some experimenting. So we have a road ahead of us, I think.

Let's keep in touch on this one.
 
Hi Treeline,

Thanks for the reply. The DPA mics have excellent specs but I am afraid they are expensive too. I once asked here whether I could have any chance with Shure BG4.1s. It was answered by Dragon and he replied, if I wanted a good classical piano sound then I had to use good mics. And good mics are expensive. But isn't this forum named Homerecording.com. However, from Dragon's and many other responses I got later, what I understand is that, if a decent piano sound is needed then the bottom line begins with a stereo pair of condenser mics like Oktava MC012s or Crown CM-700s or Shure SM81s and other mics of the same category. This is so, because, -as far as I understand-, piano is one of the diffucult instruments to record, since it has a broad frequency range, overtones and dynamic. BUT, it was also mentioned that Shure SM57 or SM58 could give good results although they are dynamic. So, as you say, let's keep in touch. I am curious about the results you get.
 
I have a simple philosophy about this stuff.

First learn, then rationalize the cost. The idea is that if I don't know much about how mics work (can explain it but haven't done much of it), then I have no business dropping three hundred bucks on a mic. It just doesn't make sense. The SM-57 and SM-58 are universally respected and are accessible to anyone. So, it makes sense to start there. Then begins the learning part.

Once I have a "voice" in mind, meaning I know what I've done and how it happened (as opposed to the "oops" theory of recording, otherwise known as mixing down by mixing up), then I'll be in a position to know what I want in a condenser mic.

Here comes the rationalization part: that I'll *need* not one, but two $300 toys will be a hard sell at my house. My ace is that my wife is the pianist in the family... and I'm hoping she gets the bug as well. Besides, you really need a pair of condensers to do an RX2 justice, right???

Well, so goes the theory; we'll see how it plays out. In the meantime, I'm working with dynamic mics that don't break when I drop them - about my speed at this stage.
 
You shouldn't have much trouble with sound pressure; the RX-2 is a pretty high performance unit. If it sounds boomy, try opening the top all the way and pointing one of the mics right at it to pick up a reflected image.

Is the piano new? You may find the dampers making racket because the felt hasn't yet worn to the strings and plucks them every time you lift off; placing the mic a few feet away, or picking up a reflected image might diminish that.

Or, just play hard. What the hell. :D
 
I will add my support for the SM57 on piano--for $77 new, $50 used, you can't beat it. Nothing flashy, but gets the job done.

Another cheap solution: For putting the mics physically inside the piano without distortion, consider a PZM (boundary) mic or mics. Crown has some starting at $99 list, selling at about 2/3 that price at Full Compass, up to the PZM30D ($369 list, ~269 retail). I didn't go this route--bought the ever popular MC012s from the Sound Roomand use them in ORTF spacing--but the PZM approach that essentially eliminates the phasing problems with multiple mics since the phase is coherent at the boundary. That's probably not a big deal with piano since you are probably close-mic-ed, which may be why it is so boomy. The old Radio Shack PZMs have a loyal following, those were made by Crown and form the low end of Crown's line.

Before you buy, consider renting--I believe Full Compass will do this it you if you live in a small town (like I do). The prices for sales seem to be predictably about 70% of list.

Virtually every recording we do has piano in it at some level, and we almost always do a low cut below 100 Hz--it doesn't add much other than muddiness. Most of these were done with the SM57. You can get wonderful sound with the SM57 or 58--not as much up-front presence as a condenser, but nothing shabby. Play with +2-3 dB on the mid-upper end of your EQ to sweeten the sound--I do this and the low cut on the computer EQ plug-in.

--MTW
 
I've tried recording the reflected sound, but have never gotten it to sound as full as when mic-ing direct. Apparently the reflected sound cancels out some of the direct sound creating what is called an audio comb filter effect. Just my $0.02.
 
G'day guys, I had a Kawai GS30 and tried lots of different mic placements and finally got the idea that the piano sounded best where I sat to play it. So I put the mikes one either side of me - next to the music rack. Due to the lower recording levels required, this has the added advantage that background noise like traffic outside my house etc is less of a problem.
The recordings sounded quite natural but inclined to be a little bass heavy (due to the characteristics of close mic placement) I used some Sony electret ECM21 mikes that I bought years ago.

More recently I changed my piano for a 7ft Diapason (Kawai) and tried recording from the same position. Results ok but left hand mic picked up too much action noise. I got a good sound with left mic sitting on a cushion just under the lid at the bottom end of the piano (near the hitch pins of the bass strings) and the other mic on the right hand side of the music rest.
The hard part is to get the level right. Cheaper dynamic mikes that I have tried tend to distort with sudden very loud notesand with the recording levels lower hiss and other noises can become a hassle.
I do all my recording with the lid open at the highest level.
I'm quite pleased with the current mic setup and recorded to mini disk with quite good results
 
Ever tried sticking a couple of acoustic guitar pickups directly on the sound board? My 1917 upright sounds great this way, stuck them right on the back and as a bonus,NO leakage!
 
Clemolo, can you give some detailed information about the ECM21. I searched the net, but I could not find any info. How much do you guess mics comparable to ECM21 cost today?
Thanks in advance.
Hakki

[This message has been edited by Hakki (edited 06-04-2000).]
 
Hakki, I don't think you will find the Sony ECM21 on the net as they are VERY old. essentially they are a lower cost condenser type microphone with an electret capsule. They are very directional and have a flat response from 30 - 20000. Not overly strong at the bass end but ideal for piano and they handle the transients very well. They are built into a slim case about as big as one of those cigar tubes. They work off a 1.5 volt battery which lasts well over 10,000 hours.

I have owned them for a long time and think they were probably made in the 60's.I don't know what the price of a current similar mike would be.

I've tried SM58's but they are rather bass predominant. It is not easy to get the recording to sound like the original piano but my recent trial with the mikes placed as per my earlier post sound pretty close.



[This message has been edited by clemolo (edited 06-04-2000).]
 
Roll off some lows at the mixer when you record, anywhere below, say, 250 hz (but experiment--you may even want to start the rolloff at 400 hz). Start by rolling off a lot and gradually dial it back in if you feel it lacks body. A 57 should be fine for recording piano. Placement near the high end of the harp may help as well.
 
We did some recording last night using MC012s with the cardioid heads in ORTF configuration (caps 17 cm apart, 110 degree angle) and the difference is remarkable, especially through headphones. Assuming you've got the channels, piano really benefits from the spatial localization--adding the second mic is more than 1+1. I don't think you need the most expensive mic in the world to do that. The sound is much less cold and sterile than with a single mic.

We did this on a single boom stand with the mics 6 inches over the pianist's head, angling down to the sound board (I built a $12 shockmount for ORTF).
 
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