Mic ideas for small group video discussion?

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xyster

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Hi everyone,

I'm a newbie to pro audio, yet I've taken on a project to produce professional-quality web videos with several of my friends. I've blown several thousand dollars of my savings (which is a lot to me, since I'm only in my 20's) building a 13'x19' studio room in my basement and getting the video equipment and related gear all setup. The very last aspect of the studio though that I have not yet tackled is the audio recording aspect - and that's because I am a bit stuck - I don't know what mic to buy!

I've spent a few long nights now researching and hunting for the perfect mic(s) and I'm finally at my wits end I think. I've read dozens of posts on this forum and on google/youtube related to what I'm looking for, but nothing seems to fit my needs, so I hope you will humor me and offer me some of your advice.

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Let me better explain the scenario of my studio,

-13'x19' room, with the ceiling and two walls acoustically treated. Floor is hardwood with partial carpeting. The room still has some reverb, but it is much better than it was before the treatment. lots of lighting.
-a large oval-shaped table is near the two walls that do not have acoustic treatments; this is because the cameras will be facing that direction.
-there will be between 1 to 4 people sitting at the table at any one point during the recordings. A foot or two apart from each other. Men and women.
-since I wish to make this show appear to be more than just a podcast, having table-top mics or in-your-face mics are out of the question.
-cameras will be between 3' and 8' feet away, depending on how many people present in the group.
-sound to be recorded will be mostly vocal, but not entirely always
-sound quality is very important to me, noticeable white noise or a lack of rich tone or clarity is unacceptable.
-I have a modest budget to work with, so buying four $500 lavalier mics is not an option, although I wish I could.
-optionally, it would be nice to record out in the field on rare occasional.
-I live in Canada, so pricing and availability sucks for most products here
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Mics that I have greatly considered so far include,

Audio-Technica AVR35s and AVR3350 lavaliers (x4) + USB mixer: I dont think they sound good enough for my needs, although they are a great price.

the Zoom H2 surround sound digital recorder mic : I thought about hanging this from the ceiling as a boom mic, out of camera sight, but I think the reverb in my room and slight background noises will cause too much muffling and not enough intimacy. I like the stereo sound part of it though.

Rode shotgun cam mic - doesnt seem to offer the clarity i need from >3feet away. Worried that it will bring out the rooms reverb sound also.

And that is where I'm at now. I'm thinking that buying a couple of <$100 wired lavaliers might work, assuming I had a semi-boom mic also (such as the Zoom H2) for times when there are 3 or more people at the table. This way i could also use the Zoom H2 to record the audio of the lavaliers when out in the field. A few hundred dollars is easily in my price range - so this could work - BUT I am afraid the quality of these mics are simply going to disappoint me. I can't afford to buy another set of better mics 3 months later if these fail me...

Suggestions?

btw, Thank you SOOOOOOO! much for your help and your time. I admit that I am a newb with this stuff, but any suggestions/help would be amazing.

kindly,
Steve

:)
 
I helped my son make several school video projects with his friends.

I used my LDC (maudio Solaris) set on cardioid about 7ft high and pointed down at them about 8ft away running into a small mixer and plugged into my camera (Canon GL-2). Good quality, no problems. In one pizza-making video they were running all over the kitchen with no problems in picking up what they were saying.

You could also try an LDC set on omni in the middle of the group.
 
If the table is high enough just put a Shure 57 in front of everyone that needs a microphone.
But the important question to you is how you want the studio shot to look like, clean with no mics or just one mic visible or mics all around.



:cool:
 
thank you for the prompt replies

moresound: while a single mic in the center of the table would work when there are 4 members at the table, when there is simply one or two members at the table I would prefer that the mics be very discreet or out-of-sight completely. For example, you generally don't see a mic during a newscast on TV.

As well, I will be using the table top at times for science experiments-type of things and how-to with physical objects, etc, that having a mic on the table would seemingly not get along with.

The table top is rather high ; about belt buckle height.

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TimObrien : Will the M-audio solaris (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Solaris.html) from 8-feet away produce the intimate sound that I'm looking for? I know I cant expect miracles, but would it be better than lavalier mics? It doesn't really look like a boom mic or anything to me - so its surprising to me to hear that it works well from 8 feet back. I'll try to look into that more tho.
 
If you're going to be doing this often, I think quality gear should be purchased after a through amount of research or else you will get gear and not appreciate the presentation as much.

If you don't want mics to be seen, I think hyper cards above the speaker is an option. A Rode NT3 on a boom pointed down for example but I would rule out a shotgun unless the room has good acoustics for it and I wouldn't use it on the camera...also above the speakers.
 
xyster said:
TimObrien : Will the M-audio solaris (http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Solaris.html) from 8-feet away produce the intimate sound that I'm looking for? I know I cant expect miracles, but would it be better than lavalier mics? It doesn't really look like a boom mic or anything to me - so its surprising to me to hear that it works well from 8 feet back. I'll try to look into that more tho.
Click to expand...

Intimate..... mmmmm, I wouldn't describe it as that, lavaliers will probably be 'more intimate' but a LOT more expensive and more trouble to mic everyone.

I can only describe the sound I got as very natural and similar to what I've heard on other broadcast shows. Certainly no problem with intelligibility or tone. And you could probably use any good LDC, too....
 
Since it's a basement, perhaps a few goosenecks hanging from the ceiling with mics. Above where the camera shoots. The rough equivalent of a boom pole, without an operator. Lavs are probably your best bet, and yes you do "SEE" those on the news. Lavs let you get a good level for each speaker since not everyone speaks at the same volume. Functionally a good shotgun mic would do you, but it really depends on the content and the room. One camera? Two? Three? Are you tracking audio independently, or straight to the camera(s)?
 
If I go with Lavs, does anyone have suggestions for an affordable, yet quality model? The AVR3350 and AVR35s are not 'good enough' for my tastes, yet I cant afford the 400$ ones. There seem to be no reviews of the ~$120 models.

Also, Will I have problems with multiple lavs in close proximity picking up more than one voice? I heard someone mention this was a problem for them, although Im not sure if it will be a problem for me. Modern lav mics are not too visible, so that aspect does not bother me too much. I don't hav a problem with wiring people up either if it produces the best sound- I just don't know if I can afford enough of the 'right' ones.

What goose mics would be a good choice? I like this hanging idea, but sound quality and wiring become a concern (long wires running down the wall, ugh). As you said, it is a basement, so the ceiling is pretty low, which is good at least. I have a dozen studio lights/railings already set up on the ceiling, so I do have a way to attach mics.

"since not everyone speaks at the same volume" - i never thought of that. gah.

"One camera? Two? Three? Are you tracking audio independently, or straight to the camera(s)?" - I have 2 cameras at the moment, although one is currently just dedicated for close-ups and for use as a backup cam if the main one fails to record during a show. I can't afford more than that currently. I can record audio straight to the camera, but because the camera is a unique custom built setup, I am considering recording it independently to reduce any problems. I just hope there are no temporal sync problems when trying to match up the tracks in post process.... (i might still use a cheap mic to record an on-camera track to help me sync up the proper audio later on)

i'll check out the Rode NT3.
 
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I checked out the Rode NT3 mic, and from the few youtube reviews of it (ie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlLQ4s-OBjo), it does seem a lot nicer than the Rode Video mic that seems popular with consumers (also a lost costlier). I believe it might be doable to hang if my room acoustics are good enough, but I'm not sure if mine are (room is partially acoustically treated only)- as I mentioned, I might also have a laptop somewhere on the table with a fan going, which might cause additional problems for it. I'm not sure though. I like the fact it can be used with either battery or phantom power, although it lacks stereo I think, which would of been a nice bonus. I know I could buy two and achieve stereo sound, while getting better sound coverage, but the cost of two of them might be pushing it for me. I can easy afford a single Rode NT3 mic, as its would cost me only just over $300, plus the cost of the required accessories, but two? eek...

Would just one (1) Rode NT3 mic be enough to capture the voices of up to 4 people sitting/standing on just one side of oval-shaped table? It be near a corner-wall. Would acoustically treating the wall/corner behind the people make a big difference to improving the captured acoustics in this case? Adding acoustic panels behind the persons will add a visual distraction that I'm trying to avoid -- the cameras that I'm using are 3D HD cameras, and adding a relatively complex background will produce unneeded eye-strain and discomfort to those watching the shows in 3D (since the walls are furthest from the zero parallax plane compared to everything else in the shot). I could however add accoustic panels on the lower third portion of the wall, out of sight behind the desk and persons...

More detail about my room: My ceiling is 95% covered with a foot-thick of safe-n-sound sound absorbing insulation, with an acoustically transparent fire-proof fabric covering it all. The walls have several 48"'x18" acoustic panels hanging on them, stuffed with 3" of the same sound absorbing insulation and are covered with similar fabric. I might add a bass trap to the room, but currently I do not have any.

Would pointing a mic (like an NT3) UP at the ceiling, instead of DOWN, be a good idea to improve acoustics? I'm not sure where I could place the mic though, in this case, as the desk would be in the way?

I know I'm asking a lot of questions, but as RastaSean said, doing a lot of researching is probably the only way that I'll make a purchase which I'll be happy with. I've Very grateful for all the help already provided to me by everyone though, so Thank You!
 
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I hope that you haven't been checking out wireless lavs! You would want hard wired models.
That way you don't have the expense of the wireless, all moneys spent goes to really nice lav mics.



:cool:
 
moresound: Haha.. wireless lav mics were one of the first things I checked out, but that was during my first week of investigating what mics to get. I have long since wised up and have completely given up the thought of getting wireless lavs. I don't have the roughly +$2500 for a nice set or whatever that they may cost. I am completely content with a [quality] wired lav and using a portable sound recorder to record when needing extra mobility. Syncing some audio to video isn't a trouble for me if it saves me a ton of cash.


I thought I would provide here a 2-minute sound clip of me in my studio, to give an example of -roughly- what the acoustics are like. I am using a $30 logitech USB mic to record, with it hanging from the ceiling, out of sight of the camera. It would be nice to find a mic that not only eliminates some of the room acoustic and noise issues, but also one that gives my voice a richer, deeper tone. I know it is asking a lot considering that I cant stick a large mic in front of my face, but thats the goal.

(2MB)

While this logitech USB setup is fine for cheap youtube videos --- I am looking for substantially better quality from my mic setup. Professional broadcast quality would be nice, but a close imitation is fine. I do expect to provide my shows also as an audio podcast, and expect at least one of the shows to be downloaded primarily as an audio-only format. I don't want to have people getting turned off from my show because of the sound sounding amateurish - i'd rather they get turned off because of my content, if it were the case. :P I know how awful it is to listen to a podcast that sounds like it was recorded in someones' home basement, and I Dont want that for my show. I do have one female host that I am working with who has a lovely voice - I really would like it to sound 'intimate' and rich to add a deeper sense of pleasure to the show's listening experience. ;) Im trying to be professional as best I can about producing this show and its presenation - I refuse to let it be just another youtube show.

btw, I have experimented with post-production noise reduction using this logitech mic -- there is simply too much noise captured for me to eliminate it all without having the voices seem a bit digital altered or compressed.
 
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No matter what .....if you have a distant mic you will lose all the low end and beef to a vocal. That is why a lav as close to the source as possible will sound the best and be close to invisible on film.
Or do the right thing with a boom operator that can move with the source not just hang a mic up in the air.



:cool:
 
:-(

While the idea of a boom mic operator sounds great, I'm not sure I will be able to convince anyone involved with me on this project to hold a mic for an hour during a show. I can't exactly afford to hire a professional boom mic operator either, but it would be an option if the show works out in the long term.

At this point, I'm thinking that of my limited options, a good choice may be to get two (2) hyper cardioid condenser mics and prop them on my ceiling, aiming them down towards the floor at slightly different directions to increase coverage and to provide stereo sound. Since I have a sound absorbing ceiling, I dont think I need to worry about the rear pickup problem hyper CC mics apparently have.

A second choice is to buy four wired Lavalier mics - but I have no idea at all of which ones to buy. The $30 ones on Amazon are the only ones that get reviewed it seems, and I can already tell that they are not anywhere near the quality that I am looking for. I don't even know how to set them up to get them close enough to a mouth to provide that rich deep sound that I want. I know that they are an option though, since broadcast TV uses them with good results.

I could also possibly do a mix of the two above options, buying just two high quality lav mics and buying the Zoom H2 digital recorder, which has 120- and 90-degree stereo mics, for use during larger group discussions. This is a flexible, 'fun', and possibly affordable solution for me, but I doubt the Zoom H2 will be able to provide the quality of sound that I am looking for. Maybe?

To sum up everything,
-What is the best Lav mic for my needs that is under $250? Under $150? Would these make me happy?
-Hyper CC mics? Bad idea, good idea, which model is best do you think?

I cant stop thinking about which mic to buy - I'm never going to sleep at this rate...
 
Lavs are a necessary evil. There really are no good ones. At least not for cheap. If quality matters that much, you'll likely want to mix the lavs with a room mic or two of higher quality. I have an ATM75, not really a lav, but the person I have in mind wants that sportscaster look. And other uses around the house. Probably the worst (spec wise) > $50 mic I have, but not completely hideous. There's advantages to keeping the same facial orientation no matter what the subject happens to do. And disadvantages, but for $70 off of craigslist...

temporal shift is going to happen between different devices, even if they're the same make and model, it really can't be avoided, outside of piping all input into a single unit like a nanoflash or something. Or using some sort of world clock / adat / whatever stuff. It's not of much consequence for short clips < 5 minutes. But being off by a full second over the course of an hour is noticeable. As long as your audio is all going to the same device and you record at a high enough sampling rate 24/96+ it can be compensated for in post. The adjustment, which you have to figure out will pretty much always be the same. For me using sox, that's speed 1.00011 to match a Korg MR-1000 with a Sanyo FH1. A difference of less than a second per hour, but fast drummers recorded in 60p, and it's not a compromise I can't not make.

If you have any dark areas on the set, perhaps you could sneak a black AT4050 in the shadows. Probably not ideal placement, but likely better than most lavs. You can always get some black electrical tape or some of that army insignia paint to subdue any gear that's the wrong color. Hopefully you didn't choose an all white color scheme for lighting purposes. (or all green)
 
Shadow7: I've considered head mounted mics like the ATM75 you mentioned, but I'm not really a fan of that sportscaster/public speaker look. It is still however something that I will keep in mind.

Temporal shift is unavoidable, eh? I am prepared to deal with that post-production, but I'll keep my fingers crossed anyways. I guess I better get in the habit of clapping my hands at the start and end of filming....

I don't have any dark areas on set in the field of view of the camera - currently there's about 700W of lighting pointed at the set, with a little bit of background highlight lighting soon to be added. I can't really afford to have dark spots either as it creates image noise in those spots then. image noise = annoying. The walls are painted a flat weathered concrete color, so it's about as neutral as colors get. The at4050 looks promising - $700 CDN + accessories though, so I want to make sure it will work well before investing in it.

I might be able to hide a mic however somewhere on set, out of view of the camera, such as in an acoustic panel hanging from the wall, but it would be behind the people speaking. I could however cut a hole in the center of my oval desk and hide a mic in there, possibly hidden under some breathable black fabric or install some visually pleasing conference table mic, but I can't say I like that idea much.
(http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/wired_mics/3c28005ab5dc1a15/index.html)
It would still be a visual issue, it would use up some of the table space, it lacks flexibility in terms of multiple applications, and depending where I am at the table, or whether i'm standing vs sitting, the acoustics might change. Its still an option though...

"you'll likely want to mix the lavs with a room mic or two of higher quality." - How does that work? I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean or how it would improve the sound quality. Would the room mic be used for negative feedback to reduce background noise or something?
 
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I took a photo (using one of the video cams), of the studio room so far.
studio_room.png

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/57780/studio_room.png

This is not where the desk will be exactly, nor will the camera be capturing exactly from this perspective, but it gives you the basic idea of what I'm dealing with. I'm currently standing next to the workstation computer at the table, which I use for monitoring the video and audio capture (4.5ghz quad core, SSD+HDD, silent water cooling), but during the filming I will be sitting at the other end of the table with a co-host(s). The table was designed (by me) to fit 4 people, while being able to capture everyone at once while facing the camera, but not capturing any part of the workstation. There is a large gray wall behind the table, the left wall as seen in the photo, which will be the primary back drop for the filming. The table and camera will be moved appropriately. You cant see it, but the other side of the room there features a high-end silent gas fireplace, which I may use to do 1-on-1 interviews in front of. I dunno yet, but it keeps this place comfy during the canadian winters here. There is also a portable chroma green screen.

You can see some of the ceiling rail lighting in the photo - it won't be seen during filming however. I can snake a mic up on to it pretty easily...

I built the room from scratch, going as far as putting up sound insulating walls. Walls, ceiling, desk, hardwood floor, two custom built 3D cameras (as best as I could afford, since they required four HD cams to make), custom coded 3D video capture software, sound panels, etc -- all made or installed by just me. This has been the first time Ive done anything like this, so I know it's not exactly high end professional, but I really am giving this everything I have. The room is close to done, but not quite yet (some of the fancy design stuff is not implemented yet). The most important aspect to me tho, other than good content, is great sound - which I why I am being so particular with this aspect.

Thanks for letting me share!
 
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All I can tell you is that if you plan on using microphones hanging from the ceiling ...you must observe the 3 to 1 rule or you will get all sorts of head aches with phasing issues.



:cool:
 
Sound is directional. Putting mics behind the source will be mostly unusable. You can always add color, black desk, black couch, black rug to hide gear. Partially submerged into the desk? You might get some of those stargate atlantis headset lav's. Or are they ear lavs. They're tiny and mostly invisible (in SD). Although probably a pretty penny. AT4050, KSM44, C414, and others in that room class of mics. MXL603 (if you're cheap). Put a planter in front of it to hide it from the cameras? vase of roses? Big name plate? Stuffed animal with hollow-esque backside. It doesn't have to be a big mic. Or partially submerged and partially blocked from view.

As far as video, I find that my consumer camcorder has a really hard time focusing if everything is one color, or one shade (light / dark). You need contrast + detail in there to train the camera to focus on SOMETHING, anything, versus being in a constant state of trying to find a focus point. Not an issue if you pull focus manually with a display that allows you enough detail to guess right / close enough.
 
moresound: I'll keep that 1:3 rule in mind, ty.

Shadow_7: The main camera that I'm using uses manual focus, with a 24" LCD attached to monitor it during recording. Since the camera is 3D, comprised of two 2D cameras, only manual focus works, since automatic focus does not sync. Also, I do not expect people in the shot to move out of the current focus plane by much, but rather just occasionally moving side to side. I guess I'll have to fix any problems as they arise however. I do wish I could afford better cams, but consumer grade is all I can afford for the time being.

As for lav mics, DPA seems to make a wide selection of options.
http://www.dpamicrophones.com/en/Products.aspx

They have a headband series like the stargate ones you mentioned i think, but they run about $1,500 each. I'm not really a fan of the way they 'look' anyways.
http://www.anythingaudio.com.au/dpa-headset-mics.htm

(I found a similar pair of headband mics 'used' on kijiji for $300 each, but they are very ugly. lol. http://toronto.kijiji.ca/c-buy-and-...-Countryman-E6-Microphones-W0QQAdIdZ202031565 Oh, and found used $200 ones at http://www.musiciansfriend.com/navigation?q=microset&st= , meh)

As for plain omni lav mic, the DPA 4060/4061/4071 look promising, but the best price I can find online for these are ~$500 CAD.

Other suggestions for lav mics online include the sennheiser MKE-1/2 and the Countryman B3/B6, although the DPA 4060 still apparently offers the best tone in comparison. Most of these mics sell for $450 and up, but I found the MKE-2, used, on ebay for ~$200-$300. No idea if buying from ebay is a good idea.

http://shop.ebay.ca/i.html?_nkw=MKE-2&_sacat=0&_odkw=MKE-1&_osacat=0&bkBtn=&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313

I also have no idea what connector type I should be getting, since I will be using these wireless-based lav mic as wired lavs. Personally, I think 3.5mm would be great, since it would allow me to use them with a portable audio recorder, but am I forgetting about phantom power? compatibility issues? XLR might offer better noise reduction though or something?

I'm not convinced yet that Lav mics are the way to go, but I'm starting to think that they may be the best option if I can afford them.
 
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