Mic for live recording on upright bass

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leddy

leddy

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When I record my jazz group live, I've been trying different condensers on my bass. Every time, it's the same result - bass sounds great but the off-axis color of the bleed from the drums really degrades the drum sound, or I EQ out the drum bleed and the bass sounds bad. The results are acceptable, but I know there is got to be a better way.

I was thinking of micing my bass with an RE20, figuring if the off-axis sound is natural enough, I can just leave it alone. My goal is, obviously, to leave the EQ alone whenever possible.

Before I drop $$ on an RE20, anyone have a better suggestion? Anyone know how the off-axis sound of a D112 is? (I'm guessing not anywhere near as nice as the EV)...
 
You didn't say, but I'm assuming upright bass.

First of all, you're to be commended on recognizing the problem. A lot of folks haven't learned to do that.

I'm also assuming you want an "organic" sound, or you'd take a feed from a pickup or lavalier-like mic placed very close to the body.

The RE20 is pretty good, but it wouldn't be my first choice. Have you tried a good SD condenser, or small dynamic (Beyerdynamic 201 comes to mind) for that matter? All other things being equal, the smaller the diaphragm, the better the off-axis response will be.

I wouldn't recommend the D112, either for its off-axis response or frequency-response curve in general.

A nice ribbon mic might be just what the doctor ordered.
 
AGCurry said:
First of all, you're to be commended on recognizing the problem. A lot of folks haven't learned to do that.

I'm also assuming you want an "organic" sound, or you'd take a feed from a pickup or lavalier-like mic placed very close to the body.


I wouldn't recommend the D112, either for its off-axis response or frequency-response curve in general.

A nice ribbon mic might be just what the doctor ordered.
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a-men on what he said

this may seem silly, and depending on how close to the kit you are it may be just a bad idea, but have you concidered an omni?

get it as close as you dare (to the bass)and just out and out embrace the bleed.

also, try a building a gobo, and setting it between you and the kit
maby like 4x4 (or more), small enough to see over comfterably, but big enough to matter.

let us know how it goes.
 
A ribbon can make you very happy, a Beyer M160 or M260 is very rejective and has a nice off axis response.

Though I have three M201's I've never tried them on upright, next occasion I will.

It may seem funny, but I've used an old AKG D12 once and that sounded quite decent. I also have a pair of AKG D14's quite rare I suppose and those sound pretty good on upright as well, but the D12 is much more rejective.

I don't own an RE20, but I've seen them used on upright quite some on TV.
 
upright bass is one of the more difficult instruments to mic. Especially in a live situation. In the studio I try to get the upright player to play in one of the isolation booths; the bleed is usually substantial and unwelcome. If they won't then I build them a "fort" A fun fort for bass that is fun. I usually go with two mics one large diaphragm condenser near the f-hole but aimed off access from the f-hole to avoid "boominess" The other is usually a small diaphragm condenser on the shoulder of the bass. If they have a pickup I'll also send it to a amp in one of the amp closets and DI it also. Now I have various signals to play with. I have a nice bass amp so usually the amp is not so bad. I can blend in the mics with the clarity of the amped signal so I get the sound of "wood" mixed with clarity. I'll rarely use the DI but may on occasion. Blending the two mics is the ideal option but sometimes the amp signal is necessary if I have to go with the bass fun fort. Eq is often necessary in a "live situation" Again this is the general micing method I use for upright in a loud, live band situation. Usually a u67 on the f-hole and a schoeps on the shoulder.
 
Thanks for the replies, I appreciate the help.

Yes, upright bass and certainly a natural sound. I cringe everytime a soundman wants a direct line. (Me to soundman: "If I want it to sound like a Fender bass, I'll play a Fender bass".) Though I know it can be useful sometimes. A gobo is not an option, since I'm recording live gigs, usually in tight places. I do embrace the bleed; fighting it gets you nowhere. I've thought about an omni mic. I've also thought about the Beyer M260. I'll look into the Beyer 201.

Thanks for reminding me about sdc's being better at off-axis. I forgot that.
Is there a general rule of condensers or dynamics being better at off-axis? Maybe I should just go with the ribbon...

I like Oktava mics; obviously they are cost effective and I like that they do not hype the high end. I've tried the MC012 SDC, the MK319 LDC, and a Shure Beta 98 (very small, clip-on hypercardiod condenser, usually used for horns or drums), all of them producing the problem I described above. My collection is missing good dynamic mics. I figured I would look into something like an RE20 or Sennheiser MD, then look into ribbons or upgrading my condensers down the road.

Still thinking...
 
I have been using the much maligned C3000 AKG, set for hypercardiod. The off axis response is quiet enough that bleed isn't much of an issue.
 
Leddy, sounds to me like you really could use a dynamic mic. You're just naturally gonna get less bleed with one. Good luck!
 
Believe it or not, I have read that people have had good success both live and in the studio micing between the legs of the bridge. Creatively using rubber bands, a "shock mount" is made by wrapping the bands around the mic and then around each leg of the bridge. If you look at this picture, it will propably make more sense than me trying to describe it in detail:

http://www.k1wd.net/music/misc/PB090145.jpg

There is at least one thread on Talkbass.com that describes various experiences using this technique. Here is one of them, but you may just want to search around Talkbass as I find it to be an extremely valuable resource for all things upright bass (or as they correctly say there and are quick to point out - "double bass").

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65257

Good luck!
 
I believe it. Old soundguy trick: wrap an SM57 in a bar towel or other cloth, with the capsule sticking out. Put it under the tailpiece, aiming towards the bridge, and adjust to taste. Probably work well with other mics, but I've done it that way for a bunch of years.
 
packinmn said:
(or as they correctly say there and are quick to point out - "double bass").
Click to expand...

Yeah, I love Talkbass. I was hesitant to use the correct term "double bass" because I figured around here most folks would think I was talking about bass drums ;)


The mic jammed in the tail piece works for me for live sound, but I don't care for it for recording.

Thanks again for the replies.
 
leddy said:
The mic jammed in the tail piece works for me for live sound, but I don't care for it for recording.
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i agree - but along the same lines, try a mic wrapped in some foam stuck in the bridge with the capsule sticking out a bit. point the mic up...it will be under the strings.

i did this earlier this year with a 451. worked better than anything i tried before as far as tone goes...and bleed for that matter. we still had a fair amount (no gobos) but it was much more workable.

while recording i thought how convenient it would be to have a figure 8 capsule for the 451 to use in this configuration. the null points would cut back quite a bit of bleed. something like a beyer 130 might be worth looking into if you have a high enough gain pre...

good luck. i love recording the standup bass - always a real challenge.

Mike
 
bigtoe said:
i agree - but along the same lines, try a mic wrapped in some foam stuck in the bridge with the capsule sticking out a bit. point the mic up...it will be under the strings.
Click to expand...

Actually, I have tried it and it does work good - you are absolutley correct. I used some tie wraps and some foam wrapped around an Oktava MC012. The problem I have is the poor isolation and the poor off-axis response of the mics I own. I'm recording a gig tonight, maybe I'll mess around with that some more.

I was thinking of the RE20, which would not be able to be mounted on the bass. Anyone comment on an RE16 on double bass? From what I've read, that has pretty flat response at all angles as well.
 
leddy said:
I was thinking of the RE20, which would not be able to be mounted on the bass. Anyone comment on an RE16 on double bass? From what I've read, that has pretty flat response at all angles as well.
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it seems to be a popular misconception that the re16 is more closely related to the re-20 than it is

they are close but thare is a difference is in bass responce
the re-20 goes down to about 45 hrz (about)
the re-16 goes down to about 80 hrz

so it may miss a little something on a double bass
(but you never know untill you try)
 
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