Mic. for harp

[Harpejoe]

Dear All,

do you know, is there any difference between DPA 4061 and Sennheiser MKE2?
Thank you for your answer!!!
Diana

 

[Massive Master]

They're both omnidirectional lavalier-type mics. Neither are what I'd want on a harp... Maybe (MAYBE) for pit work, but not much else. Is this for recording? Live use?

 

[Bobbsy]

The 4061 has a better transient response and a cleaner, clearer overall sound with an excellent bass response compared to the MKE2 However, it's a fair bit more expensive--and tends to be very fragile and easy to break the cables. With an unlimited budget the 4061 maybe...but the MKE2 is pretty close considering the price difference.

FYI, I've used omni lavs on harps mainly in live situations...probably somewhere around the second sound hole. In the studio, if you have great acoustics, you get a better harp sound with one or more good SDC mics 2 or 3 metres away--but, at that distance you have to have a very nice sounding recording space. For that reason, I often (well, as often as I record harps which isn't that much) resort to the omni lav in the studio as well.

 

[Jake_JW]

SM58's also do a decent job on a harp - stick it 1ft back and let rip.

I record a lot of Folk music and I always end up trimming down the high and low end to make a harp sit right in the mix. Not much room sound available this way, but it's great if you have a less than ideal room and they can handle the high SPL of a harp up close well.

 

[rob aylestone]

I've never considered a harp a high SPL instrument at all, in fact, mic placement for me is always to minimise the spill from the louder instruments near it. The lower strings tend to boom, but the high strings are so easy to lose the sizzle from. Condenser for me. I'm not a lover of small lav mics especially omni, because you need to have them closer than is ideal, and you find the positioning tends to emphasis some groups of strings, because they're close. I don't think I have ever got a sound I really liked. Ironically, I was at a funeral the other day and they played something I recorded back in 97, and it sounded amazingly average.

 

[Btyre2013]

I would rather use line audio mics... either 2 cm3 mics or if omni is preferable, two om1 mics.

 

[Jake_JW]

Ah yes...I assumed you meant a mouth harp (harmonica) - Completely differend ballgame (it did seems trang to suggest a lavalier). My Bad...

 

[John Willett]

Ah yes...I assumed you meant a mouth harp (harmonica) - Completely differend ballgame (it did seems trang to suggest a lavalier). My Bad...

AN MKE 2 is the perfect mic. for a harmonica - it's actually the best solution.

Run the cable along the arm and stick the mic. on the palm of the hand.

You will capture all the effects that a good player will do with his hands - works great.

I got this from a great player who far preferred the MKE 2 over the traditional mics as it captures the harmonica so much better.

 

[Richard Monroe]

A question nobody asked- Are we talking about a nylon or metal strung harp? And for the record, I'm assuming that you are asking about a harp, not about a harmonica. If you want info on mic'ing a harmonica, please make that clear. As far as the mics you asked about, sure there's a difference. The Sennheiser is an affordable mic that works pretty well, and the DPA is a better mic that costs quite a bit more. Note that as in car racing, you pay 80% of the money for the last 10% of performance. So- don't expect a *huge* difference. But- there is a modest difference. Neither one is the mic I would choose for harp, except maybe for spot mic'ing in an live orchestral situation. So- are we talking about live sound reinforcement, live recording, or studio recording? Tell me that, what the harp is strung with, and what the budget is, and I might have some suggestions. Oh- and does it have pedals? That makes a huge difference, because you don't want live sound or a recording to to contain a lot of pedal noise. And yeah, I know there aren't as many bronze-strung harps out there as there used to be, but a fair number of Gaelic folkies still use them.

 

[John Willett]

The Sennheiser is an affordable mic that works pretty well, and the DPA is a better mic that costs quite a bit more.

The Sennheiser MKE 1 and MKE 2 are about the same price as the DPA 4060 and are of equivalent quality.

It's only the cheapo ME 2 that is the cheap option (which I would not recommend for this use).

 

[Bobbsy]

The MKE2 is about £190 at Canford but the DPA4060 is £285. I slightly prefer the DPA sound in most things but they can be a bit fragile.

 

[Richard Monroe]

The Sennheiser MKE 1 and MKE 2 are about the same price as the DPA 4060 and are of equivalent quality.

It's only the cheapo ME 2 that is the cheap option (which I would not recommend for this use).

Oops! My bad. Wrong DPA mic. I stand corrected.

 

[John Willett]

The MKE2 is about £190 at Canford but the DPA4060 is £285. I slightly prefer the DPA sound in most things but they can be a bit fragile.

???

The MKE 2-4-Gold-C is £258.33 +VAT at Canford (and marked "normally £310") - see here - and the accessories are extra.

 

[Bobbsy]

That's the Gold series with the expensive connector for the 3000/5000 series radio mic pack.

The same mic with the connector for an EW pack is HERE at 195 pounds.

The basic MKE 2 5 with bare ends (which is what I priced) is now marked down to 158 pounds at Canford HERE.

Canford, of course, is far from the cheapest source (though those prices sound good to me compared to Aussie ones).

 

[John Willett]

That's the Gold series with the expensive connector for the 3000/5000 series radio mic pack.

The same mic with the connector for an EW pack is HERE at 195 pounds.

The basic MKE 2 5 with bare ends (which is what I priced) is now marked down to 158 pounds at Canford HERE.

Canford, of course, is far from the cheapest source (though those prices sound good to me compared to Aussie ones).

I know there are cheaper versions, I was using that to show that the MKE 2 is equivalent to the DPA 4060 series.

Though, nowadays I would get the newer MKE 1 over the MKE 2.

And if you are confused as to why the MKE 2 came before the MKE 1, it's because for about 50 years all Sennheiser microphones starting with a "2" were omni (and all headphones stating with a "2" were closed back) - but then some new people came into the company who did not know the numbering rule and messd things up

The MKE 1 is a lot smaller than the MKE 2 and better - in fact Sennheiser have now changed the headmic capsule to an MKE 1 and these are now becoming the tie mic of choice on their radio systems instead of the MKE 2.

 

[Bobbsy]

No criticism of the MKE2 (I haven't heard the MKE1 yet but have heard good things about it) and it's certainly considered a workhorse in the theatre sound industry (edited to add "along with Countryman"). However, the DPA is considered a little better for some applications and many's the time I've heard sound designers say "I'd like to have used a DPA but couldn't get the budget". Certainly, in the configurations and quantities used for big shows, the Sennheisers are about 30% cheaper.

Just as an aside, in the theatre world, the "tie mic" is rarely used on a tie. It's more likely to be up on the hairline or over an ear. Omnis are almost always used in preference to directional versions. On the other hand, in TV, where lavs ARE used on ties or lapels, for some reason Sony have a huge market penetration. The ECM77 or ECM88 have a huge segment of that market. I've used ECM77s in the hairline/over ear position and they worked well but have never managed to break the MKE2's popularity in the theatre--I guess it's a bit like the SM58 of the musical world..."I know I can get better but everyone knows how to EQ an MKE2" sort of thing.

However, just to offend your sensibilities, between sweat and enthusiastic dancing, the service live of lav mics in the theatre is very short. In the past few years, there's been a move to use very cheap Chinese mics. They're far from as good as the Sennheiser/DPA/Sony type but can sound okay with some EQ--and at under $30 a mic, they become a disposable like batteries instead of a capital item. Producers love them for that!

 

[John Willett]

No criticism of the MKE2 (I haven't heard the MKE1 yet but have heard good things about it) and it's certainly considered a workhorse in the theatre sound industry (edited to add "along with Countryman"). However, the DPA is considered a little better for some applications and many's the time I've heard sound designers say "I'd like to have used a DPA but couldn't get the budget". Certainly, in the configurations and quantities used for big shows, the Sennheisers are about 30% cheaper.

Just as an aside, in the theatre world, the "tie mic" is rarely used on a tie. It's more likely to be up on the hairline or over an ear. Omnis are almost always used in preference to directional versions. On the other hand, in TV, where lavs ARE used on ties or lapels, for some reason Sony have a huge market penetration. The ECM77 or ECM88 have a huge segment of that market. I've used ECM77s in the hairline/over ear position and they worked well but have never managed to break the MKE2's popularity in the theatre--I guess it's a bit like the SM58 of the musical world..."I know I can get better but everyone knows how to EQ an MKE2" sort of thing.

However, just to offend your sensibilities, between sweat and enthusiastic dancing, the service live of lav mics in the theatre is very short. In the past few years, there's been a move to use very cheap Chinese mics. They're far from as good as the Sennheiser/DPA/Sony type but can sound okay with some EQ--and at under $30 a mic, they become a disposable like batteries instead of a capital item. Producers love them for that!

In the UK the West End Theatre standard always used to be the MKE 2-red dot.

These were treated as consumables (like batteries) and lasted about 2-weeks before they were sweated out - a bit longer if they were then used on less "important" cast members for a bit.

Sennheiser then designed the "Gold" version with an "umbrella" diaphragm that protected the capsule and these lated a lot longer - though many theatres still preferred the sound of the "red dot" version.

Nowadays the DPA 4061 seems to be popular in the West End, as they prefer the sound and are prepared to put up with the short life.

The MKE 1 has a better sound than the MKE 2, I understand, as the "umbrella" diaphragm was designed in from the start, rather than being added later - I think the sound is back to that of the "red dot", but with the sweat protection.

Oh - and I was involved in supplying the original radio system for Phantom of the Opera in London when it first started (1986 I think) so am well acquainted with all this.

But theatres in the UK prefer to keep the high sound quality of the MKE 1/2 and DPA, rather than going to cheapo Chinese mics, and treat them as disposables - especially as seat prices are well over £50 nowadays (maybe around £75); so replacing a few mics every couple of weeks is not all that costly in the total scheme of things.

 

[Bobbsy]

Things have moved on a bit since '86 and, while the MKE2 may have been ubiquitous 30 years ago but things have moved on. A good friend of mine is a multiple Tony and Olivier award winner (including this year) and I know he is a DPA fan. At the other end, for example a lot of touring shows (including ones designed by the aforementioned friend), the "cheapie" model has cut in. I'm not saying it's good but it's cheaper. Producers look at every expense and over 30 or 40 mics being changed every few weeks for a multi year run, the numbers get silly. Look at it this way. Forty mics at 200 pounds each is 8000 pounds every two weeks or 208,000 pounds per year. Change that to a 30 pound mic and the cost drops to 31,000...and, unfortunately, that's how the bean counters see it.

It's just like the move to digital desks from big Cadacs. The count every seat in FOH saved at the cost per performance and something that eats 8 seats instead of 16 saves hundreds of thousands (or even millions) over the course of a run.

Of course we haven't discussed Countryman yet. That's the other big player in live theatre!

By the way, do I remember your name from Sennheiser many years ago? I seem to recall getting a quote once from somebody with a similar name but selecting a different manufacturer. This was back in my TV days when we were equipping several studios and some ENG crews.

 

[John Willett]

Things have moved on a bit since '86 and, while the MKE2 may have been ubiquitous 30 years ago but things have moved on. A good friend of mine is a multiple Tony and Olivier award winner (including this year) and I know he is a DPA fan. At the other end, for example a lot of touring shows (including ones designed by the aforementioned friend), the "cheapie" model has cut in. I'm not saying it's good but it's cheaper. Producers look at every expense and over 30 or 40 mics being changed every few weeks for a multi year run, the numbers get silly. Look at it this way. Forty mics at 200 pounds each is 8000 pounds every two weeks or 208,000 pounds per year. Change that to a 30 pound mic and the cost drops to 31,000...and, unfortunately, that's how the bean counters see it.

It's just like the move to digital desks from big Cadacs. The count every seat in FOH saved at the cost per performance and something that eats 8 seats instead of 16 saves hundreds of thousands (or even millions) over the course of a run.

Of course we haven't discussed Countryman yet. That's the other big player in live theatre!

By the way, do I remember your name from Sennheiser many years ago? I seem to recall getting a quote once from somebody with a similar name but selecting a different manufacturer. This was back in my TV days when we were equipping several studios and some ENG crews.

They have not gone down the cheapo route in London yet and the DPA seem to be the popular choice at the moment.

And, yes, I did use to work for Sennheiser UK (not for the last 5-years, though).