mic comparisson

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warmth is good

warmth is good

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hello folks,

first off, id like to express my gratitude towards the people that run this board and also to those who contribute, as it really is a great resoarse for those less experienced people with an interest in recording, like myself.

infact, nearly all my gear purchases have been based on recomendations from this board!

so the reason i'm posting, is because i was A-Bing my new purchase, an AT4040 with my first condenser, the SPB1. for the record im using a DMP3 and delta44 also. I was hoping for AT4040 the AT4040 to become my new main vocal mic, but i doubt this will be the case.

unfortunately, i have been rather unsatisfied with the results of the comparrison and i feel that my B1 produces a more detailed, full, and clear result. considering the 4040 is 3 times the price, this is not making me feel great as i'm sure you'll understand.

i dont think you could argue that the sounds are merely different, as to my ears, the B1 is giving a far richer sound, and to my ears, is clearly the better souding mic.

so basially i'm hoping for some comments from people that maybe have the same mics, or similar, and also maybe from the more experienced guys who vouch for the 4040, as i know there are a lot of you!

could it be a case of the B1 just being more suited to my voice? which is i guess, aggressive, loud, grainy...(sort of eddie vedder, cept, obvioulsy, not as good!)

I'd find this hard to believe as the B1 is really at the very low end of the mic spectrum surely...a good mic none the less but should the 4040 not be leaving it for dead?

please note that in the comparison i made sure to keep the same distance from each mic, and get the same gain on each.

any comments would be appreciated.
cheers :o
kevin
 
sniff.........sniff............sniff.................hmmmm.

anyway, as many will tell you, it's not the price. it's what works for you.

i have a few questions for you. are you judging solo or in a mix? why are you using the exact same position for both mics? what's your monitoring chain like?
 
well both solo and in the mix, and in both cases there is a noticable difference. right enough, the only other tracks in the mix for my test were 2 acoustic guitars, but even still, the B1 tracks seemed to cut through better.

this is besides the point, but surely if a vocal track sounds better solo, its going to sound better in the mix?

monitoring, i'm using a pair of in-ear headphones at the minute - the same ones i use to listen to the old ipod 90% of the time i'm awake, so i'm prety comfortable with the way they sound. even still, comparing the two different mics signals, from what i hear, i like the sound of the B1 more.

are you suggesting that if it was monitored properly, the 4040 would show its quality in some way? the 4040 is without doubt a quieter mic, but in terms of sound, i just like what i hear more from the cheaper mic.

about the positions i used, i actually tried a number of different positions, but i assumed that as both mics have the same pickup pattern, a fair comparison would be to test them with the same conditions. if you use the 4040 yourself, i'd more than welcome any comments on how you get the most out of it, and how you find it compares to other mics you use.

also, appologies if i have misjudged your responce, but if you're assuming i am a sound projects employee then, well, i'm not... i'm a student at the moment, and i don't have much dough for gear, so for the money i speant on the 4040, i was hoping for a step up in quality, and certainly not for my cheaper mic to sound better. seriously, it would break my heart if it turns out my voice is just more suited to the B1.... maybe higher level sound projects mic would be the way to go if this is the case...???

again, any comments from folks are great. especially if someone has had experience with both mics and can say that the 4040 is worth holding on to!

cheers
 
warmth is good said:
well both solo and in the mix, and in both cases there is a noticable difference. right enough, the only other tracks in the mix for my test were 2 acoustic guitars, but even still, the B1 tracks seemed to cut through better.

this is besides the point, but surely if a vocal track sounds better solo, its going to sound better in the mix?
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Not necessarily. I can record an acoustic and vocal track and be perfectly content but throw some drums, bass, and keys in there and those tracks might not be so stellar anymore.

warmth is good said:
monitoring, i'm using a pair of in-ear headphones at the minute - the same ones i use to listen to the old ipod 90% of the time i'm awake, so i'm prety comfortable with the way they sound. even still, comparing the two different mics signals, from what i hear, i like the sound of the B1 more.

are you suggesting that if it was monitored properly, the 4040 would show its quality in some way? the 4040 is without doubt a quieter mic, but in terms of sound, i just like what i hear more from the cheaper mic.
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The reason I asked about your monitoring chain is because it makes a big difference in reality vs. what you're hearing in your ear buds. I might be listening on a pair of headphones with a mid bass bump and accented hi's and think that a neutral mic sounds big. Change the listening environment and I make think otherwise.

warmth is good said:
about the positions i used, i actually tried a number of different positions, but i assumed that as both mics have the same pickup pattern, a fair comparison would be to test them with the same conditions. if you use the 4040 yourself, i'd more than welcome any comments on how you get the most out of it, and how you find it compares to other mics you use.
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The best position for any mic is where it works best, not necessarily where another mic was placed.


warmth is good said:
also, appologies if i have misjudged your responce, but if you're assuming i am a sound projects employee then, well, i'm not... i'm a student at the moment, and i don't have much dough for gear, so for the money i speant on the 4040, i was hoping for a step up in quality, and certainly not for my cheaper mic to sound better. seriously, it would break my heart if it turns out my voice is just more suited to the B1.... maybe higher level sound projects mic would be the way to go if this is the case...???
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I don't understand why you would be heartbroken if a cheap mic works best for your voice. You don't have much money but you really want a more expensive mic to work better than the cheaper one? :confused:

You have to understand that I've been in your position and claimed similar things only to figure out after a little more time that I was completely wrong. I've spouted off some pretty silly shit on this board. :D That's just part of being green I suppose but I'm learning to keep my mouth shut until I've had a reasonable amount of time with the gear in question. Now maybe when you say "more detailed, full, and clear result" you mean that the 4040 sounds neutral in frequency response in comparison to the b1. Maybe the b1 actually does sound better than the 4040. One reason why I'm kind of skeptical is that I've heard alot of comments on how the b1 isn't so great for vocals.

I might have came off a little harsh to you but you came off kind of spammy to me. I wouldn't put anything past some manufacturers after seeing some of their shenanigans. Something else you must realize is that I generally have a big mouth and can't help myself. I've gotten myself in trouble in the past so I'll just shut up now. :D

I'm sorry if I'm wrong (really) but your post sounds pretty spammy to me. Walters?
 
dude how do you have negatives already??

ok, well heres my insight...

everyone's voice is different. a mic that may sound good on your voice might sound shitty on someone elses.

keep the 4040 if you plan on recording other people. it's a good mic i think, but so is the SP for the money.

other than that, post some clips and we will be able to help you.

if you are just gonna post to spam and /or complain, well, have fun with that then..
 
TragikRemix said:
dude how do you have negatives already??
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Negatives come quickly around here... ;)

As far as sound quality, what Travis stated is pretty correct. It's all about how something fits in a mix. Solo, is totally different. A killer guitar sound solo, will most likely dominate a mix. Same with a vocal. If you make it really fat, and sonicly great solo, it could take up alot of a mix, and sound terrible.

And performance is extremely crucial. A studio album has many guitar tracks on it, and usually several vocals, all mixed to sound like a performance by a band of 4. Not a band of 20.
 
PrettyWoman said:
all mixed to sound like a performance by a band of 4. Not a band of 20.
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that's a point i've never pondered. here's you some green. :D
 
PrettyWoman said:
And performance is extremely crucial. A studio album has many guitar tracks on it, and usually several vocals, all mixed to sound like a performance by a band of 4. Not a band of 20.
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Thats one thing with mixing that people dont typically understand right off the bat. But all I can add to the conversation other then that is to reinforce that getting a killer solo sound wont allways work great in the mix. This is really apparent on toms, if you where to solo the toms in the majority of mixes they would sound pretty crappy but its all about how things relate to each other.

As far as your AT 4040 goes keep it I'm sure you could find a benefit from it eventually. Probally your best bet is to get some moniters, they can be crappy M-Audio DX4s is did some pretty sweet recordings with these and they sound like crap compared to what I'm using now but anything to give you a flatter sound would be the best for you. Ipod headphones are good reference headphones if you want to check a mix but tracking on them and mixng on them is a bad called.

Peace,
Kyle
 
KamikazeKyle said:
Thats one thing with mixing that people dont typically understand right off the bat. But all I can add to the conversation other then that is to reinforce that getting a killer solo sound wont allways work great in the mix. This is really apparent on toms, if you where to solo the toms in the majority of mixes they would sound pretty crappy but its all about how things relate to each other.
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Exactly. In a sparse mix, get everything sounding great by itself, and see what happens. You might need to cut some dominant frequencies. In a busy mix, you might want to start working on as many parts of the mix as you can stand. And it will take some tweaking.


And thanks, TravisinFlorida. :)
 
warmth is good said:
please note that in the comparison i made sure to keep the same distance from each mic, and get the same gain on each.
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Dude that's your first mistake, That is absolutely the most wrong way to compare those 2 mics. You have to work proximity according to the individual mic, some mics are great at 3 inches others at 12 inches and some mics have a hotter output but not always a better sound.
 
Kevin,

Sorry to hear that your mic isn't what you expected or wanted. I don't know what your long term goal and interests are with regards to doing your own recording, but if I may offer a suggestion? If you are passionate about what you do, and you want to spend many years recording and learning the art, then start a savings fund for just recording gear. Then, try to find ways to be able to audition some different gear, so you can make less risky decisions about what to choose. Be flexible as far as what you end up purchasing, keeping in mind you may not ultimately like what you hear. Still, you always have the choice of selling the gear and buying something else.

I did things alot different: I bought really expensive gear which turned out to be more than adequate for my purposes anyway, so I have no complaints.

Also keep in mind that your ears are different than anyone else's when it comes to judging sound. If it doesn't sound good to you, then it probably doesn't. Perhaps the AT4040 really does sound like crapola, or perhaps you can't tell the difference between caviar and rabbit pellets. Whatever the truth is, if you say it sounds worse than the SP mic, then that is all you need to know.

I would also suggest you give it some more time, try different recording techniques with it before you sell or trade it for something else.

Do some more research, add some decent monitors to your signal chain, do some room treatment to help your recording space. All the while, save up and get higher end gear in the future, by then you will have a pretty good idea what you want, and you will have the experience to get the most out of it.

Good luck!

By the way, if you only posted twice before, how did you get all this so called great advice from forum members?
 
There's a big difference in their freq response, visit the websites and check out the graphs.

http://www.studioprojectsusa.com/pdf/b1.pdf

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/resource_library/literature/0c8b78f4de66c1df/at4040_english.pdf

The B1 peaks out around 10k, the 4040 closer to 5k and is pretty flat near the 10k. You're probably used to the high end sizzle of the b1, especially on your IPOD headphones. I'd think the 4040 should have a lot less simbalence problems tracking vocals. That being said the spb1's reponse looks mroe like the modern u87

http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=u87_data

Try comparing both tracks with the top end rolled off to compare apples to apples, if for no other reason than to maybe feel better about your purchase while you decide if it works for you. I don't have a 4040 but I would expect it to have a richer mid range and tighter bottom than the b1. Also the B1 seems fairly reactive to proximity effect to me (not having anything else to compare it too though) is the ATs better managed? This would allow you to get less room on the vocal tracks if you wanted.

I've got a b1 myself and just ordered a Karma k35 so I know exactly where you are coming from. The AT I was looking at was the 4050 btw.
 
Oh and sometimes better and more honest gear isn't always flattering.
 
warmth is good said:
i dont think you could argue that the sounds are merely different, as to my ears, the B1 is giving a far richer sound, and to my ears, is clearly the better souding mic.
...

please note that in the comparison i made sure to keep the same distance from each mic, and get the same gain on each.

any comments would be appreciated.
Click to expand...


Well, based on your throrough comparisons, I would say that clip A definitely has more fullness, presence, and just sounds, all-around, like a much better mic than what I hear in sound clip B.

Oh, wait a minute. That's right. YOU DIDN'T EVEN POST ANY COMPARISONS. HOW DOES IT FEEL TO BE THE WORLD'S BIGGEST ASS HOLE ? ! ! !
 
well thanks for the responces from most of you...chessrock, maybe some anger management would benifit you in some way, in my opinion, thats a pretty shitty way to talk to someone you don't know, and has just come here for some advice and a chat more than anything else.

the reason I didnt post the sample was due firstly to the fact i wanted to talk about my first impressions, and secondly, i'm aware that both the mics i have are extremely popular, especially in this forum, and so, responces from people that have both mics would not require my particular samples for them to comment. i'm aware that you are well respected for you knowlage in this place, but again maybe treating people with a bit more respect and kindness would help you get over whatever issues you are stuggling with.

about my seemingly quickly judged negative impressions on the mic...
maybe i have been too quick to judge it, and i'll admit that i do not have near half the experience some of the people on this board have, but when trying out the 4040 last night i felt like a kid at christmas that didnt get the presents he wanted, or maybe if, when you finally get that porche 911 and its not quite as fast or responsive as you had expected...

i think that's infact the key thing here, the mic just isnt what i expected.

on a more technical note, maybe learning more about EQing would help me achieve the sound i'm after. but then, surely if you can get more of the result you are looking for with a mic BEFORE EQing then this is the better call? if not, then is a perfectly flat responce mic, not the ideal for the sound engineer?

Doug, thanks very much for those graphs...i guess what i could be noticing is a lack of high end in the 4040, which complements my voice in the case of the B1? i'll mess about with that for a while and see if i get a more similar sound with the 4040! to be honest Doug, i feel that you get more room, with the 4040, and the B1 seems to focus more on the voice, which i have become accoustomed to and like, but again, maybe with more experimenting, i'll find the sweetspot of the 4040 too.

Rick, thanks for your advice also, maybe i can't tell the difference in quality between the mics, but i think i was hoping for the difference to be clear as day, when this is obviously an unreasonable assumption. still, maybe with a little EQing the quality will be more apparent. the advice from other members i was talking of, has pretty much just been what i have read over the years, i've always found that by searching about in the sortof 'best mic-pre for under $300' threads is the way to go if you're on a budget. rolling of the top end on the b1, i'll try that...but surely rick, if i like the original results from the B1, then a better thing to do would be to boost the top end of the 4040 no?
also with the monitor issue, it always falls to the wayside, as i am on a serious budget (this mic was pretty much my birthday and christmas present!) and also, surely it is better to get the input signal as good as it can be before thinking about making the final sound brilliant. that is, i could record through a decent input chain and send it away for professional mixing/mastering to get a brilliant result, whereas if i was still using an audiobuddy preamp, it wouldnt matter what monitors i was mixing on! this is based solely on the principle that i dont have much dough, obviously if i did, i'd be getting some monitors...

recordingpro, point taken, some more tracking will be done before i make a full judgement.

the difference between a good sound in solo and in the mix is also interesting, and in the case of the guitar solo sounding killer when solo, and then taking over the full mix is a good point, but to some degree, that is what i am looking for in the vocal track, you WANT it to stand out more than everything else. and i was pretty happy with that aspect of the B1, and was just hoping for more of the same (except better) with the 4040. i'll try and get a few tracks up somewhere soon so ya'll dont think im a SP employee...

i can assure you tragikremix, that i'm not here to spam or complain... but ask advice of those who know better, and also of people in the same position as me. i'll deffinately try and get some clips up!

thanks again for the comments people.
 
I was just messin' with ya, Warmth.

:D

Just trying to give you a subtle hint that you might get better responses if you were to actually post clips of the comparison you're talking about. Otherwise, it's all just a bunch of talk that will ultimately amount to very little.

.
 
fair play, subtle it was indeed...

i'm going to be working hard tomorrow to get a full song done, with vocals from both mics, so hopefully this will highlight the differences more, and i'll post the results.
 
I understand what he's saying

in reference to the cost issue.

What he's saying is, if the AT is no better, let alone not as good, as his SP, then he's depressed about spending that much on the AT when he could have used that large chunk of his limited budget for something like monitors.

That's the point he was trying to make, not that he's sad about getting better results from cheaper gear.

My question would be, did you get specific advice, or read a post, that lead you to believe that the 4040 was the right mic for your voice, as opposed to another mic in that price range?
 
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