Methods- Marginally Off Topic

when you use the -12dB of headroom, how do you end up making your mixes loud enough? that seems like a lot.

So I guess I have a couple of questions: 1) what is the benefit you see in using that much headroom, and 2) how do you get mixes the volume and power they have (repeating Powderfinger's question)?

I'll try answering myself. Tell me how far off I am.

Answer to #1: Leaving -12db of headroom gives you plenty of safety for the spots where you need to boost somethng. You sort of implied this in your post. But then I'd ask, why not just record it hotter, slide the fader down, and create your headroom that way?

Answer to #2: I would have said lots of compression, but you blew that one for me. Ok so I guess this isn't really an answer after all.

That's what I was thinking too. I've heard others recommend -6db so I'd like to hear some more opinions on this.



Adhering to a digital discussion here, I believe M. Brane explained probably better than I could technically. But I simply like the freedom of the headroom.

As I mentioned, my large mixes, sometimes with 4-6 simultaneous guitars, require a heavy amount of EQ. I could probably babble an answer for days, but essentially a lot of the "bigness" I think comes from careful attention to ...ummm....frequency interplay? In other words, Every instrument has it's own space. We know this. But we don't always know where that instrument's space is. But it's not just done simply with panning. Too much bass is just too much bass, and too much mid range is too much...and on and on. But if I can find a mix where ALL ranges are represented with considerations of each other, I get a full mix. It's kinda like maybe establishing an ideal government in Iraq or something. Whatever.
Solo the bass and guitar tracks. Anything clashing? Maybe something around 170 Hz making things a bit muddy? It's easier to tell by soloing. So Eq plays a big role in my "big" sound.

But reverb does as well. And if you know my music, with the exception of maybe The Passing, I'm not really hip to long reverb trails. I can't afford the clutter with the complexity of the instrumentation. So I try to achive that full sound by surgically adjusting my reverb settings to BLEND the instruments with each other. To make the very end of that sustained vocal dissapear into that guitar chord. Just as much as necessary to give it the depth that is appropriate. I'm not looking to mask anything or give a false sense of space. The notes dictate the reverb size and mix size. I listen to the notes and the rhythms. That tells me how big to go.

When all that is done, I adjust the levels to peak at -6. Some of them have reached that point already due to EQ or other effects. Which is why I needed the headroom.

As for compression, I say that with proper miking and attentive EQing (which takes time and experimentation), a lot of compression is superfluous. I find that it's usually only part of the frequency range that's doing the real damage. I personally don't like to risk losing even that slightest vocal twitch that could give the line the character it begs for, but would be lost deep in the trash compactor of a 10:1 ratio. Works for dance pop, not for me.


-12dB is what I shoot for during tracking. -6dB is what I shoot for in the mix, of both individual tracks and of the overall mix. I don't know enough about mastering, so I never really attempt it anymore. Maybe someday I can pay someone to do that for me.

Don't know if I helped...but much more detail than that would probably depend on a particular song I think. Anybody else got a different view or suggestion, or just clarification or elaboration they'd like to share on that? I don't really have an organized way of explaining this stuff.


Sluice-- You mentioned a while back you use Drums from hell for your drums..are they just samples?

Ya, I use them in the DR-008, sequenced with Sonar's piano roll. You'd have to look at their website to see if FL is compatible. I found them after taking PLENTY of shit for my drums. :) (Thanks Drum Nazi's!)





One of the most important things again, is get it right in the tracking.

And if you don't deliver a tight performance, you quite logically are not going to get a tight mix.

Ok there's my thoughts for the day. Hopefully some of it actually makes sense.
 
SLuiCe said:

-12dB is what I shoot for during tracking. -6dB is what I shoot for in the mix, of both individual tracks and of the overall mix. I don't know enough about mastering, so I never really attempt it anymore. Maybe someday I can pay someone to do that for me.

Don't know if I helped...but much more detail than that would probably depend on a particular song I think. Anybody else got a different view or suggestion, or just clarification or elaboration they'd like to share on that? I don't really have an organized way of explaining this stuff.

I was speaking mainly of the volume....your mixes always seem sufficiently loud, volume wise. Thus I don't understand how you track at such a low volume, but still have a loud mix. Do you just continue to increase volume after you've tracked it? Whenever I track at a low volume (i'd say -6 db is low for me, much less 12) i end up with a rather low volume sounding mix.
 
I separate most of my mixes into 4 or 5 Virtual Mains, basically submixes. All the guitars one one, vocals on another, drums, etc...

Once everything is mixed at good relative levels in each subgroup, I can then raise (or lower if necessary!) that group's overall volume to -6dB (with the ocassional peak around digital zero).

So now I have 3-5 "Mains" each peaking between -12 and 0 dB, and usually averages out to be sufficiently loud without doing the squashing thing. This then gets exported to one .wav and converted to MP3 for you dudes to dissect.

How's that? I'll keep trying if I haven't made sense yet. :D
 
also.......do you have the link for that sonusman article you were talking about.......i couldn't find much w/ the search function....
 
Here's a line from that thread about compression I like. :)

Also, don't be afraid to use about up to 3db of gain reduction with a compressor when recording a vocal track to digital. Use a longer attack time, like around oh, 15-25ms, and a fairly short release time, like around 40-70ms. I would use a very light 1.5:1 ratio, and no more then a 2:1 ratio. Set the threshold to whatever gives you at the most 3db of gain reduction at the loudest part of the vocal track. If the singer (you?) is hitting more then that on the compressor, or you cannot get your vocals to set at around -10db full digital scale somewhat consistently, then your micing technique for singing sucks, or you need to learn to control your voice better...


I remember that. That's pretty much what i was saying about my approach to compression above. I have since found that by keeping my compression settings at low impact levels I have learned to control my voice better, which is far more important to me than just getting a track I could call finished. Compression is good, but like any effect it has to be used with care.
 
Welcome to...


THE CLINIC.


Great thread!I already have some new ideas to apply to my approach.Great to hear the tricks and secrets of the master homereccers.I will be a loyal student eagerly awaiting the tidbits of knowlage strewn about this meager classroom.
 
Here's little software mixer headroom experiment for you:

Record something nice and dynamic like a drumkit or a punchy bass. You can use an existing track as well, as long as it's not something that's been squashed to death.;)

In your session add a stereo master fader. Leave the fader at 0db.

Now start adding tracks. You can just duplicate the existing track and add it on another track. Keep adding tracks until the master fader clips.

How many tracks did you get? Not many I'll bet if you recorded "hot" or used a hot/normalized track.

Software mixers depend on some serious math to add everything together, and it doesn't take much to screw it up.

You can read more about this kind of thing here. Although Mr.Katz is speaking from a mastering point of view, I believe his basic idea applys to tracking/mixing as well.
 
I liked the parts about “ghosts in my background” and “chase your tail like a cat on peyote”.
 
Everyone seems to leave when I enter. I can’t imagine why…I’m such a lovable little Critter.
 
Hey you guys, good thread.

I still don't get the -12 thing (I tried reading that article, but my eyes just glazed over :o ) .

Why can't you, if you have recorded above the level of -12, just turn those tracks down (if they go over when you EQ them, or when you have a number of them, and now they are overloading the main master)?

Thanks,
Macle
 
macle said:
Hey you guys, good thread.

I still don't get the -12 thing (I tried reading that article, but my eyes just glazed over :o ) .

Why can't you, if you have recorded above the level of -12, just turn those tracks down (if they go over when you EQ them, or when you have a number of them, and now they are overloading the main master)?

Thanks,
Macle

Good question, and I'm not sure I can explain it that well, but I'll try.

When you lower the faders in a software mixer the software has to re-calculate the level of the audio. These calculations have to end up at whatever bit rate your working at, so some information will be lost in the process. No big deal since it's the bottom bits that get lost, right? How this is done is the problem. Does it truncate the lower bits? If so you had better dither any tracks you do volume adjustments on. Do the faders add their own dither? This is better, but you can still suffer from cumulative dither noise if you have a lot of volume adjustments, therefore defeating the purpose of tracking hot in the first place. In either case your mix will sound flat, lifeless, and possibly harsh/grainy.

This is how I understand it from what I've read, and I've read a lot. How much of it is fact, and how much is theory is open to debate. If I'm wrong about this I would really appreciate the correction.

If you have the facts.;)


PS: My eyes tend to glaze over a bit on this stuff too since math was never my strong subject.:D
 
That’s not only what I’ve always read, but my own experiences attest to it. Mess with the digital stuff enough and it sounds like total shit. Get it as right as you can the first time, or use analog.
When I first got Cakewalk I thought “cool, I can do anything now”. I’d start off with some pretty good sounding stuff and completely waste it after making all the “digital” adjustments. I was bummed at first. I’ve gotten a better handle on it now, and it’s because I do as little as possible in the digital realm. But then we all know this already, right...?
 
monty said:
That’s not only what I’ve always read, but my own experiences attest to it. Mess with the digital stuff enough and it sounds like total shit. Get it as right as you can the first time, or use analog.
When I first got Cakewalk I thought “cool, I can do anything now”. I’d start off with some pretty good sounding stuff and completely waste it after making all the “digital” adjustments. I was bummed at first. I’ve gotten a better handle on it now, and it’s because I do as little as possible in the digital realm. But then we all know this already, right...?

That's another good experiment, monty!

After you record something, make a rough mix with no volume adjustments or effects. Save a copy. Go back and tweak to your hearts content. Wait a couple days, then compare the two.

Which one really sounds better......:eek:
 
I'm so CONFUSED!:D

I think I want to try a few recordings using this approach, just to see how things turn out. Man, when you start throwing math at me, I get scared real fast. I have noticed the cumulative effect of tracks causing the master fader to clip. Always wondered why a bunch of sources under 0db would combine to create a signal thats over 0db--but maybe thats obvious. Just not to my feeble mind.

I think I see where I may have been misguided. Heres why: I used to record using a pair of ADATS. I always got the levels as hot as I could without clipping. The difference back then was this: I ran the 16 channels into a real mixer and not a software mixer. I think this is the difference and possibly why I think the ADAT mixes seemed better than the mixes I have done in software only.

The only thing I wonder about is still this: when you record at -12, you are not getting full resolution with those digital tracks. Maybe its a compromise between individual track levels and the summing that happens when we mix. It merits some experimentation. I'm like everybody else--I want my tracks to be clean and true. After recording most of my life in analog, I am probably applying principles that worked in analog to digital. I'm not going beyond 0db, but I've always thought that I should get as close to that as possible. Maybe thats not the best approach. I'm going to do some experiments on my own and see what works the best to my ear.
 
Remember, I was responding to the question of what do I do. During a track setup, as I am testing levels, I like to peak at -12 because if I then give a good performance, and the peak happens to go into the red, I've wasted a good performance. Right? Lowering a distorted track, is just lowering a distorted track.

The reason I personally record at -12dB, is because I'd rather boost a whole submix to achieve volume. This is simply less calculations to be made in the digital realm, and less chance for damage to my audio, as far as I'm concerned. I've been recording for less than 2 years. I don't have all the answers, just what I do.

And I strongly encourage people to find out for themselves what works best in their own environment. Different gear is different gear. This works for me.

As for getting full resolution, well, I think losing a couple dB's of a well miced track isn't gonna hurt that much. But I really don't know.

I'm sure before long some bigshot Homerecer from one of the other forums will come in and tell how dumb I am for recording at -12dB. But I like the clarity and punch of my tracks. I feel I've lost nothing by not pushing that fader.

And I also wanted to thank M. Brane and now Monty for explaining the reasoning better.
 
Like crawdad, I'm going to experiment with the -12db technique next time. I think it'll be worth the time and effort (and fun) to find out how things sound.

SLuiCe - thanks for responding to my PM (which I suspect was the last straw that caused you to post this thread) :D.

I've been recording my tracks as close to 0db as possible without clipping. Now if you get 10 or so of those very hot tracks all playing at the same time, the mix clips like a madman (SLuiCE - you indicated this to me in your PM and I totally agree with you on that). So I end up pulling back the faders on everthing so it stops distorting and I can begin mixing. Maybe something is lost in doing that.

Just for shits, I'm going to start treating -12db like I used to treat 0db and see what turns up. Maybe that's not right for me, maybe someday I'll figure out that -8db is right. Who knows, I just want to get started figuring it out.

If everything peaks at -12db I can begin to see why a minimalist compression strategy is all that's required.

Thanks, not only to SLuiCe, but to everyone who's contributing.
 
SLuiCe said:
I use them in the DR-008, sequenced with Sonar's piano roll. You'd have to look at their website to see if FL is compatible. I found them after taking PLENTY of shit for my drums. :) (Thanks Drum Nazi's!)
No problem.

:D


As for me (and my pathetic methods)... I kinda agree with Sluice. I don't really use much compression on anything other than my vocals. And even then, my ratios are aboot 1.5:1 (sometimes 2:1) with relatively high thresholds.

I used to try the "track it at 0dB" thing, but it never worked out. I always had to lower my faders like crazy and apply major compression to all the tracks, as well as the Master fader, just to get things under control. But nowadays, when I'm done tracking, I can usually do a little panning of the gits and have a decent sounding mix right off the bat. That's without adding a single effect to anything. In fact, that's what I did with the last tune I recorded. I tracked everything except the vocals, then I did some slight level adjustments, threw a tiny bit of comp on the Master (1.5:1 at -6 db threshold or so, with a slight gain adjustment) and I was able to take it over to my bros to give him a test listen. Even the finished product didn't have much compression on it.

I find that I usually only compress primary "instruments". Such as lead vocals, solos, etc. For everything else, I may just give it some slight EQ adjustments (not that I know a thing aboot EQ) and leave it at that.


And I couldn't agree more aboat getting it right in the tracking... My last song turned oat better than all the crap I'd recorded previously, and it was for one main reason... and that is because I took my time and got some fairly tight performances out during tracking. Plain and simple. I used less comp/EQ/reverb on that song than prolly any of my previous ones, and yet it sounds ten times better.


I really don't have any right to talk aboot this stuff, cause I really don't know crap aboat the technical aspects of this stuff, but I can give advice about what I've learned... and that's this:


Stop relying on effects. My stuff used to be so full of disturbingly wide reverbs and crazy compression and various other @ss-nasty effects (can we say "flanger"? :eek: ) and it was all because I was trying to make up for a mediocre (or even lousy) performance. Get your tracks down tight. Get your guitars in sync. Get your vocals fluid. Get your drums in time and keep them appropriate for the tune. And for the love of God, don't try to stuff 20 lbs. of accompaniment tracks into a 1 lb. bag. :p. And while you’re doing all that, keep your levels under control.

After that, you shouldn't need to add much of anything.


WATYF
 
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