MB Compression...the lost producer

9

92_

New member
What up fellow musicnerds (No offence intended, for the overly sensitive persons) hehe

Multiband compression...anyone here a wiz at that?
I've been working on learning this, and it really is the hardest part of mastering that I have ever tried to conquer. Either the mix ends up to loose, with hardly any feel to it at all, or it ends up flat, with a total lack of dynamics. None of these is what I desire really, so what I'm searching for here is someone with skills and tracks to show for. No offense to those who think they're the best mastering engineer in the world cause they master they own shit, but I'm talking someone that works with this on a frequent basis. I'm probably just like the latter, except I know I have alot to learn. I'm known for having a great sound, but it just doesn't cut it for me...I want great sound in my ears, not just everybody elses. Before you strike me off as an a-hole that's to full of himself...I'm not...I'm just keen on learning more about the subject at hand and I want someone with genuine skills to explain/tip me in the right direction.

Hope I didn't manifest any haters out there now hehe

-Nito
 
I do mixing and mastering for many other artists. Don't get it twisted though, I'm not like John from Massive Mastering or anything. But I can do it up real nice...

What's the problem with the Multiband Comp? I can't promise to have the answer but, I can probably help. I've been mastering for about 3 years now.

I can show you some tracks I've done if necessary.
 
Feel free to show off some tracks man.

As I mentioned the tracks end up really flat or really...dead...see?
What kind of approach do you use when using the mb comp?
What kind of ratio do you use for bass and such?

Now...I'm fully aware of the fact that there is no uniform answer to this, but I would appreciate some tips. I know that mb comp and such is pretty much tuned in to fit the track at hand and there are variables, but there are usually some sort of techniques to figure out values/ratios and such.

Feel free to pm me with some tradesecrets hehe

-Nito
 
You can check my most recent work here:


The track is called "Empire Takes Back" from the "Bar Wars: Legends of the Ecclessia" EP from YSG-Timothy. The EP is set for release on January 17th. This is the first single.

As for the ratios etc... I'll be honest man, I only use MB comp when I need to. I use EQ more than anything, and then a tube compressor. I'll use MB comp when I need to squish a frequency that's too intrusive, or to enhance a weaker frequency in the low end. The best thing to do, is use a low setting 1.1:1 or 2:1 etc.. rarely I'll use someothing over 3:1 but not often. Then I set the Attack and release times to a very quick setting, like 50ms. Then I'll adjust the Attack and Release until I get the desired sound I'm looking for. It takes some getting used to. I trust my ears WAY more than I trust any presets...

Mastering is a weird thing man... I can't really explain how I do what I do... but I know I can do it. Ya know?
 
I havent mastered stuff for a long time so I dont know if what I say should count for much. I know I have been doing a decent job. I'm like change on this. I use alot eq and not as much compression. Some cats can just squeeze the life out of a track if you know what I mean. I also feel you have to use different techniques depending on the style of instruments that are in the song.

One technique I can recomend to anyone is the use of chains when mastering. Using a chain keep the music in the non destructive realm. Just add the plugin tweak it but if you dont like it you can take that plugin away without changing the audio at all. Another technique I like to use my self is loading up a track from a commercial artist thats similar to the track i'm mastering. Then I try to match it with eq and compression. Most mastering type software allow you to go back and forth between the two. I use soundforge with Waves plugins for all my mastering.
 
Cloneboy Studio said:
Honestly, if a track NEEDS multiband compression at the mastering stage it probably wasn't mixed right. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

I beg to differ. I realise that I'm the guy who asked the question here, but I still feel that a little mb compression on the master can get you a long way.
I usually utilise compressors in the mixing process as well. Only on the individual channels. Then I set up a chain with processors in Cubase/Soundforge (Depends on what I'm mastering) to edit the whole shabang non-destructively after I've bounced it from Reason/Cubase.

Now...I'm no mastering engineer here, but I've gone thru enough theory to partially understand the concept behind mastering. I used to slap a regular compressor on the whole mix to get the vocals to sit tight, but seeing as the low end it usually above the rest it's much more sensible to use a mb comp...don't you all agree? Besides it'll make the low end tight as unmentionable female bodyareas hehe IF DONE RIGHT!

Chain example:

low cut 60hz...to get rid of the mud
warmer...to add warmth and punch (and to regain some bass from the mud)
EQ...to correct/define some frequencies
MB C to get the freq levels a bit more even
maxer...maxing it out

Ofcourse; This all depends on what kind of track I'm doing. If I'm going old school I would probably start that process at the mixingstage or before as well. Seeing as a drummachine and sampler didn't have all the bells and whistles back then like we do now.


Change of Poets:
Your track was pretty ok and I hope I don't offend you when I say that I would classify that track (in my mind) as something that really projects the underground feel. Nothing wrong in that though. Hell I like the track.
Allthough R2-D2 needs to refine his flow hehe

As with mastering and what it is. I agree with you Change of Poets, it's hard to explain what it is, you just know you've done something right when the track "talks" to you and says it's done.

While we're on the subject how bout you cats show off some chain examples the way you do your shit.

-Nito
 
92_ said:
Change of Poets:
Your track was pretty ok and I hope I don't offend you when I say that I would classify that track (in my mind) as something that really projects the underground feel. Nothing wrong in that though. Hell I like the track.
Allthough R2-D2 needs to refine his flow hehe

As with mastering and what it is. I agree with you Change of Poets, it's hard to explain what it is, you just know you've done something right when the track "talks" to you and says it's done.

-Nito
Click to expand...
No offense taken, as it's not my track. :D

I'm just doing the mixing and mastering for the project. And you're right, that dude (YSG-Timothy) is definitely an underground type of artist.

My music is nothing like that track, at all. ;)
 
92_ said:
Chain example:

low cut 60hz...to get rid of the mud
warmer...to add warmth and punch (and to regain some bass from the mud)
EQ...to correct/define some frequencies
MB C to get the freq levels a bit more even
maxer...maxing it out

-Nito
Click to expand...

You may have answer your own question right here. You probably squeezing the life out of your tracks with a compressor right behind basically another compressor. Maxer is a different kind but compression can slam a track just as well as even it out. Just depends on the settings. I would eliminate the MBC from you chain. Your mixing should have leveled out whatever that needs to be leveled out. So I sorta agree with the guy who said there maybe something wrong in the mix. I'm still no mastering genious but why would you have to cut out 60 hz in a master? You couldnt do that in the mix?
Seems like your using mastering tools to correct mistakes for the most part and not enhance on what your doing.

My chain is like this:

Waves Q10 Paragraphic EQ
Waves S1 Shuffler (this helps me get the stereo imaging the way I want it
Waves L1 Ultramaximizer
Waves PAZ Analyzer ( I can check from here by looking at it if anything i did screwed up the the track I'm trying to master. I also use it to check if mix has some phase issues. If it does I can only go back and remix it. I also put this same analyzer on the commercial track I'm mastering too)

I'm dont claim to be anything when it comes to mastering but what I have learned from school is the best mix is when you dont have to do much to the mix to master it.
 
I'll be honest, I rarely ever use MBC in mastering. I usually only have to use it on other peoples projects, and the mixes aren't perfect.

Chalin is right on that one.
 
chalin27 said:
You may have answer your own question right here. You probably squeezing the life out of your tracks with a compressor right behind basically another compressor.
Click to expand...

See That's not the problem, cause the shit is getting squeezed before it reaches the maxer. I've actually have better sounding tracks without using an MBC, but I just really want to know how to harness the power of one. Knowledge is power you know hehe

I'm cutting at 60 to prevent the mud in the track. I also lowcut alot of my shit in the mix process, but I cut it basically just as a precaution in the master process. It's nifty to see what you all do to master your shit, cause we all have our own process to it.

chalin27...you're using the maxer without compressing the vocals to a nice snug fit to the mix first? Or are you talking "instrumental mastering" here?

-Nito
 
O.K. multiband compression. How about the Waves C4? I use it a lot in final mastering. Fixes a lot of problems in mixes. Fixes highs, mids, and lows. It's kind of complicated to state how to use it in just a few words. But, you need to play with the attack and rel. Also, the threshold. But, you can really mess up a mix with it too. You have ta learn how to use.

What works for me when mastering is to look at all the plug-ins as instruments. I know this sounds crazy. But, treat each compressor, limiter, and EQ as it's own instrument. Each plug-in has it's own character and feeling. Just like a musical instrument has it's own sound and character in how it plays.

For example, look at the meter on the compressor on the main mix. You have to tweak the compressor to react with the mix. Kind of like how you tone a piano to get the sound you want. What works for me is close our eyes. Tweak the settings and listen. Don't look at the meters. Your ears will tell you if your right or not. Then look at the meters and see how it reacts with the mix. I know I may sound crazy, but this is how I master.
And how you order your plug-ins in chain also plays a part. If you put the Waves L1 Ultramaximizer first and the C4 second, the plug-ins will react different then if you had the order reversed. Find what works for you.

Here's how I set it up:
1. Waves C4 (this compressed the lows and highs)
2. Focusrite D2 EQ (to eq the mix, bring up highs after compressing it, and lows)
3. Waves L1 Ultramaximizer (to final out the max output)

Hey, I'm not a pro master. But, this works for me and sounds good.
Also, use a 32 band EQ to polish the mix. This plays a big part in a pro sounding mix. Ya, the loudness plays a factor. But, it's your final EQ also.

Try this... :D
Get a song from a industry CD you really want your mix to sound like. Add it in it's own track in your mastering session. On the master fader add the Waves - PAZ Psychoacoustic Analyzer to see the frequency of that song. See how it was compressed and where the engineer cut frequencies and such. Now, you can try to match that waveform. It works. I don't see it as cheating... :rolleyes: It is a learning tool.
Here's a mastered sample:
 
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Cloneboy Studio said:
Honestly, if a track NEEDS multiband compression at the mastering stage it probably wasn't mixed right. Just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Totaly agree! If you mix your songs right, your mastering will take no time. You might just have to compress it and tweak the EQ a little and you're out the door... Perfect the first stage first before mastering. :D

Another Tip:
When recording and mixing, slap on the plug-ins you use to master. I call this master as you record and mix. This will give you a better feel of how it will sound. Then you can EQ and compress each track in your session right before you even master it. Then when you 2 track the song, disable all the mastering plug-ins you have in the recording session and bounce the session. Now all you got to do is master the session. And you know what settings will work because you had it in your mixing session. :cool: Make 2 steps into 1...

It's also handy to have the Max limiter when recording and mixing because if you mix the session without it, your mix will sound totally different when mastered. When limited, vocals will sound louder, instruments will come out more in the mix and so on.

What do you guys mostly use to master. I use Pro Tools and Wave Burner to final out tracks...

Oh ya, play your mixes on I-tunes to test your masters. It will distort if you have too much bass. Just something I found...
 
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92_ said:
chalin27...you're using the maxer without compressing the vocals to a nice snug fit to the mix first? Or are you talking "instrumental mastering" here?

-Nito
Click to expand...

I compress my vocals, Bass, Snare and Kick in the mix. Folks can do it different ways but this is what I learned in school and it sorta stuck with me. I was always told that mastering is more so of bring an entire LP together as a whole so from begining to end you get a complete great sound. Although I have master single tracks before just so it's up to par with the rest of what I listen to in my car or whatever. Mastering is more so for a whole LP and not so much a single song. Like I said though you can do whatever you feel is best for you to get it to sound how you want it.

If the life is squeezed out of it before you get to mastering you may want to check how hot your recording it or how hot are you mixing it? You have to leave some room in the track to master it. If the track is loud before going to master there isnt much room to do anything you want to do even if it's more compression or eq. Make sure on your mix down that you give your self at least 3db before zero. That way if your gonna use the MBC you have some room to work with.
 
chalin27 said:
If the life is squeezed out of it before you get to mastering you may want to check how hot your recording it or how hot are you mixing it? You have to leave some room in the track to master it. If the track is loud before going to master there isnt much room to do anything you want to do even if it's more compression or eq. Make sure on your mix down that you give your self at least 3db before zero. That way if your gonna use the MBC you have some room to work with.
Click to expand...

Yes! Good you brought that up. I tell clients to give me tracks with no compression on the master fader. Give me the raw master mixes. You need room to work with in mastering. If you get a mix that is maxed out to death, sorry not much you can do. You can never take out compression, but you can add it. Also, use high bit rate files. Nice to have. Also use reference tracks you like and try to have the same bass and highs.

like chalin27 said, in the mixes compress individual tracks, kicks, snares, hats, instruments, and vocals.

I can't strees enough, mix it good the first time and mastering will be easy. Make your mixes sound like it's mastered already.
 
BeatsBuY said:
Try this... :D
Get a song from a industry CD you really want your mix to sound like. Add it in it's own track in your mastering session. On the master fader add the Waves - PAZ Psychoacoustic Analyzer to see the frequency of that song. See how it was compressed and where the engineer cut frequencies and such. Now, you can try to match that waveform. It works. I don't see it as cheating... :rolleyes: It is a learning tool.
Here's a mastered sample:
Click to expand...


ha haaa, i did this for my "Red Oktober" cd. yes, it's very effective. i like the results especially since i'm nothing close to a Mastering engineer let alone a Mixing engineer, but i did what i had to do to get the job done when my boy dropped the ball.

BTW BeatsBuy, that song is really nice! the engineering, production and lyrical quality is excellent.

is that your artist, homeboy, associate?
 
"BTW BeatsBuy, that song is really nice! the engineering, production and lyrical quality is excellent.

is that your artist, homeboy, associate?"

_________________

It was a project my artists and homeboy put together. Thanks... Still trying to perfect things. But getting there... :rolleyes:

Mastering is a breed it itself. Like learning to be a good mixer or producer. Mastering takes skill and know how. The pros who master those hot singles on the radio have at lease 15 to 20 years under thire belt...

I had a profeshional mastering company master one of my projects for $2000. Just wanted to see the deference. And there is...

Look at his credits. I was blown away. :eek: I have a long way to go...
http://www.oasismastering.com/EddyDiscography.htm

And that doesn't include what he did before he made it big! Man!!!
 
BeatsBuY said:
"BTW BeatsBuy, that song is really nice! the engineering, production and lyrical quality is excellent.

is that your artist, homeboy, associate?"

_________________

It was a project my artists and homeboy put together. Thanks... Still trying to perfect things. But getting there... :rolleyes:

Mastering is a breed it itself. Like learning to be a good mixer or producer. Mastering takes skill and know how. The pros who master those hot singles on the radio have at lease 15 to 20 years under thire belt...

I had a profeshional mastering company master one of my projects for $2000. Just wanted to see the deference. And there is...

Look at his credits. I was blown away. :eek: I have a long way to go...
http://www.oasismastering.com/EddyDiscography.htm

And that doesn't include what he did before he made it big! Man!!!
Click to expand...

that's exactly why i choose not to get into mastering, i have two small sons and learning to master isn't convenient for me so out of all of the hats i choose to wear, that is one hat that i'm not going to wear. i'll leave it to the pros.
 
You know what? I'm gonna hit ya up with some examples in a couple of days, so that you'll know what I mean. It's hard to explain. I think my shit sounds dope without using an mbc, but I just want to learn how to use one to better understand WHEN to use one. See? If a track sounds dope, it doesn't mean that there's nothing more to do with it...I kinda do things the hard way to learn more. So even if a track doesn't require all that much stereospread, it doesn't mean I won't slap on a widener there just to see what the difference will be. I like to test shit out to get to a level where I know that I have done everything I could to make a track sound its best.

Aight, I'll upload some samples in the near future to show you what I mean.

-Nito

Alot of good tips here though.
 
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