Mastering/volume equalization question

H2oskiphil

H2oskiphil

It needs more cowbell!
Here's my deal...

A 17 track CD that I'm done tracking and mixing. Now I'm trying to do some basic mastering myself.

Biggest issue I'm running into right now is getting all 17 tracks to play at or near the same volume.

I used Vegas to mix and track, and Sound forge to edit. I'm going to use CD Architect to put together the master to send off to the printers, but I also have Nero.

Does anyone have any hints on an easier way to get these volumes equalized? Right now, it's adjust, render, listen, repeat. That's time consuming and ear warping.

Does anyone know of any software that will either equalize the songs against each other or at least tell me what volume adjustments to make by track to get close?

Thanks in advance....

Phil
 
H2oskiphil said:
Does anyone have any hints on an easier way to get these volumes equalized? Right now, it's adjust, render, listen, repeat.
Click to expand...
That's how it's done.......!


H2oskiphil said:
Does anyone know of any software that will either equalize the songs against each other or at least tell me what volume adjustments to make by track to get close?
Click to expand...
A computer can't hear for you, nor can s/w adjust for the frequency-dependent weighting inherent in the ear's perception of sound level.
 
Dammit, Bruce, that's NOT the answer I was looking for....:mad:

Now, if you'll excuse me, I've got to go back to listening, rendering, adjusting, and repeating.

I'll be back, someday....:D






PS-that's kinda what I thought the answer was gonna be....no WONDER you guys charge so much to master it right...if there was any sort of budget for this release, I'd send it off....but I'M not even going to get paid for the tracking and mixing on this one until it sells enough to recoup the cost of printing, so I'm not going to add a couple of K to the bill for mastering.

Maybe we'll do it right on their SECOND release-assuming this one makes any money (which I think it will.....).
 
LOL I'm in the same boat.....but then again.....wouldnt you charge that much if you had to do that for some garage band who sounds like crap and just wants it as loud as possible? i have dents in the wall from where I've thrown demo cds of bands wanting me to book shows for them.
 
(A) For God's sake, dont use Nero to burn an audio CD that's going to replication... Unless Nero started using frame-accurate PQ documentation that I don't know about.

(B) There are less expensive alternatives to mastering than the 2K route :D

(C) Can't you adjust volume in CD Architect anymore?

JS -
 
What I’ve always done (when making CD’s for myself) is to open up the first two songs in Wavelab, listen two the last 10 seconds of the first song followd by the first few seconds of the second song. Then I close the first song, open the third, and repeat the steps with the second and third etc . I rarely need to re adjust after that. I don't see any reason to render so many times, unless there’s some reason not to do this in Wavelab (which I’d like to hear about if there is).
 
Massive Master said:
(A) For God's sake, dont use Nero to burn an audio CD that's going to replication... Unless Nero started using frame-accurate PQ documentation that I don't know about.

(B) There are less expensive alternatives to mastering than the 2K route :D

(C) Can't you adjust volume in CD Architect anymore?

JS -
Click to expand...

A) I wasn't going to use Nero unless someone gave me a REALLY good reason to do so...

B) For 17 tracks?

C) I'll dig into my documentation for CDA a little deeper...I didn't think there was a good way of tweaking volume in CDA-although the graphics give you a pretty good idea of what you're going to get based on the peaks...

I may give you a call tomorrow-you've given me feedback on a couple of these tracks. If the band is up for the expense, I may try to give them a prod in that direction...particularly if the first 1000 sell...

Phil Schaefer
AMEG Productions/Oskee Music
 
nunyabusiness said:
What I’ve always done (when making CD’s for myself) is to open up the first two songs in Wavelab, listen two the last 10 seconds of the first song followd by the first few seconds of the second song. Then I close the first song, open the third, and repeat the steps with the second and third etc . I rarely need to re adjust after that. I don't see any reason to render so many times, unless there’s some reason not to do this in Wavelab (which I’d like to hear about if there is).
Click to expand...
If you already have Wavelab, why aren't you using the Audio Montage view??? :confused:

That view allows you to load all the tracks back to back and make the appropriate volume adjustments - and then burn directly to CD. Why on earth would you open and close each song individually??
 
A good VU or RMS meter would help. In Sound Forge you might try using the "Scan Levels" function in the Normalize plugin. This should give you a good indication of the overall Peak and RMS levels of each song. You can then compress/limit or adjust the overall volume to fit what's appropriate for each song.

Not all songs should necessarily be at the same level however, depends on the context.
 
H2oskiphil said:

Does anyone know of any software that will either equalize the songs against each other or at least tell me what volume adjustments to make by track to get close?
Click to expand...

Try Feurio. With it you can adjust the levels and see in percentage the adjustment. You can also see all 17 tracks wave forms and click in them to listen to any part you want. Very easy to compare track volume and sound.

shareware $35.00

http://www.feurio.de/
 
Massive Master said:
(A) For God's sake, dont use Nero to burn an audio CD that's going to replication... Unless Nero started using frame-accurate PQ documentation that I don't know about.
JS -
Click to expand...


Hmmm,
Today's dummy question....what's wrong in using something like Nero or Easy CD creator to create the final audio CD that's going to go off to be replicated? I mean I've used Easy CD Creator to create CDs of various tracks by other artists, with no discernable problems, like clicks between tracks etc, so what's the big deal?

I'm genuinely interested, because I'm planning to produce my own demo album and this is the method I was going to use 'post home mastering' to create the final master CD for send off. i need to know why this method is no good and what else I need to get hold of to create the CD (I have Soundforge is that better?)

(Assuming here that the CD is home produced master and not going out in WAV form to a third party mastering house).
 
You need a RedBook standard PQ editing program (WaveLab, SoundForge, etc.) that allows frame-accurate editing AND documentation of such editing.

Here's the scary part - I've actually dealt with bands who have sent in non-RedBook discs that the replicators actually ran with - C2 errors and all! 1000 copies (and some of them worked).

It's just best to not take the chance - You don't want to wind up with 1000 copies of "might play" discs.

I'm not trying to self-promote, but I offer a "RedBook Transfer" service that does nothing more than extract, verify and document PQ, burn, verify and document error (C1, C2) status. Fifty bucks.

There's a little more info at my site under FAQ's/articles - "RedBook CD's" and "Disc Errors?"

John Scrip - www.massivemastering.com
 
glynb said:
Hmmm,
Today's dummy question....what's wrong in using something like Nero or Easy CD creator to create the final audio CD that's going to go off to be replicated? I mean I've used Easy CD Creator to create CDs of various tracks by other artists, with no discernable problems, like clicks between tracks etc, so what's the big deal?

I'm genuinely interested, because I'm planning to produce my own demo album and this is the method I was going to use 'post home mastering' to create the final master CD for send off. i need to know why this method is no good and what else I need to get hold of to create the CD (I have Soundforge is that better?)

(Assuming here that the CD is home produced master and not going out in WAV form to a third party mastering house).
Click to expand...

A more important issue than redbook is the quality of the disc media that you are going to use along with the quality of your burner. This is where the C2 errors can start creeping in.

C2 errors are caused by uncorrectable read errors on the disc. See:
http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-47

More explictly, E32 errors are those caused by using Track at Once instead of Disc at Once recording (writing the entire disc in one pass) as well as uncorrectable errors in media/burning.

Be sure to burn DAO (Disc at Once) and you should be OK in regards to red book standards. There are other issues in regards to redbook, but since you won't be able to edit PQ codes directly, most likely neither of these product will allow you to break the rules (assuming your songs are more than 4 seconds in length and you don't have more than 99 tracks!).

It would be helpful to send a PQ list with your disc however. If you want to do this on the cheap, try the following product:

http://www.goldenhawk.com/

For more info on the types of disc errors see:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=52x+CD-RW+Roundup+Vol3+(Optorite+CW5201+%26+Plextor+Premium)&index=8
 
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Massive Master said:
(A) For God's sake, dont use Nero to burn an audio CD that's going to replication... Unless Nero started using frame-accurate PQ documentation that I don't know about.

(B) There are less expensive alternatives to mastering than the 2K route :D

(C) Can't you adjust volume in CD Architect anymore?

JS -
Click to expand...

I knew it. Every once in a while, I log in, I learn something. Well, we really learn something everyday!

Massive, when you said frame-accurate PQ documentation, what are you referring to? How does it affect the sound, if it does and what are the caveats? What is PQ anyway?
 
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masteringhouse said:
A good VU or RMS meter would help. In Sound Forge you might try using the "Scan Levels" function in the Normalize plugin. This should give you a good indication of the overall Peak and RMS levels of each song. You can then compress/limit or adjust the overall volume to fit what's appropriate for each song.

Not all songs should necessarily be at the same level however, depends on the context.
Click to expand...

Quite possibly the best piece of info I've ever gotten from this BBS.

I KNEW there was a scan function in one of the plugins. I could not for the life of me find it.

So that leads to the next question...scan RMS or peak if all I'm trying to do at this point is equalize volumes? I'm thinking RMS, but tell me if I'm wrong. The preset for the normalization is -12dB-, but there's a "music" setting that normalizes to -16dB...which one should I use? The plug in will automatically apply dynamic compression if I get clipping....

This is where I get really confused...I've been tracking and mixing my own stuff for a couple of years, but this is the first thing I've ever done that's going to get sent off for duplication, so I want to make sure that what I give them on Friday night won't get sent back by the duplicator amidst peals of laughter.....I'll be watching the answer to the PQ question, as well.

While were at it, the duplicator wants my cue sheets...what are cue sheets? Is it just a listing of in/out track times like CD Architect automatically generates?

Thanks a TON for answering my questions...I had to swallow my pride and accept the fact that I'm right at the limits of my knowledge level right now...
 
H2oskiphil said:


So that leads to the next question...scan RMS or peak if all I'm trying to do at this point is equalize volumes?
Click to expand...
RMS is loosely the "average" volume level. Peak is... well, it's the peak level. A song can be low in overall volume but still have high peaks. RMS is closer to what might considered the listening or perceived volume of the song.

If you get the RMS levels of your songs somewhat close to each other, you should be able to tweak them from there to the desired track-to-track levels.

As masteringhouse has already said however, songs should not necessarily be at the same level. What you are looking for in a CD/Album is for the songs to transition well from one to the next. In other words, you shouldn't have to jump up and change the stereo from one song to the next. However, some songs should still be softer than others.
 
great thread...

masteringhouse said:
A more important issue than redbook is the quality of the disc media that you are going to use along with the quality of your burner. This is where the C2 errors can start creeping in.

C2 errors are caused by uncorrectable read errors on the disc. See:
http://www.cdrfaq.org/faq02.html#S2-47

More explictly, E32 errors are those caused by using Track at Once instead of Disc at Once recording (writing the entire disc in one pass) as well as uncorrectable errors in media/burning.

Be sure to burn DAO (Disc at Once) and you should be OK in regards to red book standards. There are other issues in regards to redbook, but since you won't be able to edit PQ codes directly, most likely neither of these product will allow you to break the rules (assuming your songs are more than 4 seconds in length and you don't have more than 99 tracks!).

It would be helpful to send a PQ list with your disc however. If you want to do this on the cheap, try the following product:

http://www.goldenhawk.com/

For more info on the types of disc errors see:

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/Articles/Specific.asp?ArticleHeadline=52x+CD-RW+Roundup+Vol3+(Optorite+CW5201+%26+Plextor+Premium)&index=8
Click to expand...

Follow up dummy question...

OK after home 'mastering' I choose the 'best' media to do my master disk. I burn it real slow and a good quality CD burner, single speed, so to minimise errors. I listen back carefully and don't notice any discernable erros, clicks, jumps, etc. Isn't that enough to ensure it's a good copy for duplication? Why would that CD create potentialy lots of disks that fail?

Are the 'uncorrectable read errors' referred to not one that you would hear when listening back to the CD? If you can't hear them how do you know they are there? If the CD copies are identical to the master and the master plays fine in all your friends CD players, car stereos, walkmans, etc, then won't all the copies play just fine too?

Like I said, dummy questions to some of you, but interesting to know...
 
Geez, so many questions ...

1. In regards to Sound Forge's "Normalize" function I was only suggesting that you use this for measurement of the RMS level, not actually using the normalize processing. It's a quick and dirty way to get levels the same, but you should really try to use use a combination of a compressor and or limiter to raise levels. Generally think of the compressor when you want to add "density" to the mix and the limiter when you want to raise level by lowering the peaks.

Just using SF's "magic bullet" may not always get you the best results. And as dachay2tnr mentioned, some songs should be lower in volume than others. Variety is the spice of life and having a ballad the same volume as a rocker can be real unnerving.

2. Are the 'uncorrectable read errors' referred to not one that you would hear when listening back to the CD?

Uncorrectable read errors may stop the CD from playing entirely in some players, in others there may be a click, skip, or some other type of audio anomaly, and in some you may not hear anything at all due to interpolation and other error correcting mechanisms. Assuming that the CD does not stop playing, there may be a significant number of errors that are not detectable by listening since CD players may mask some of these errors, so the best way of determing if they exist is to run the master through a CD checker. They should be able to do this at the plant, in fact IMHO any reputable plant should do this as a matter of course, but as was previously mentioned, some unfortunately do not.

In order to ensure that you do not have problems, require that the plant perform a check for these errors and ask for the report.

BTW, Glenn Meadows performed a test on CD burning speeds and found that 2X produced the least number of errors. This is dependent on the media and CD burner, but it serves as a good average. Results can be seen here:

http://www.digido.com/portal/pmodule_id=11/pmdmode=fullscreen/pageadder_page_id=75

3. What are cue sheets?

These may vary by plant, essentially it's a list of the start/end length of time, and order for each track on the CD. It's similar to a PQ list but may not have all of the detail. Some people use the term cue sheet to mean PQ list (in which case it would have all of the data).

4. What's a PQ List?

In addition to audio data, a CD has information in regards to the location and format of the CD. Part of this information is stored in a something called a subchannel that is labeled with letters P-W. The P and Q subchannels contain information for the track start/end times, ISRC codes, and other stuff. See the following for more detail: http://www.ee.washington.edu/conselec/CE/reports/Group.1/matt_page_individual/subcode.html

A PQ list is basically a listing of this information on the disc. CD Architect is capable of printing this list along with other producst like Emagic Waveburner Pro, Toast w/ Jam, and others. You can also extract one from an existing CD with the software I had mentioned previously.
 
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