"Mastering" limiters are forcing me to change the way I mix.

LogicDeLuxe said:
I always master in float, and the very last thing to do is the 16 bit quantization with noise shape dither. And if it unexpectedly clips after EQ'ing, I can just lower the volume afterwards, since nothing gets lost in float. If the source peaks at 0 or at -30 dB, it really doesn't make any difference to me.
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This assumes that you are mastering in the box. If you actually have hardware, the gain staging becomes more important. Even if you are at 32 bit float, it will get bounced down to 24 bit when it hits the converters.
 
Okay, let's try this; can anyone here post a before mastering limiting and after mastering limiting audio example of a metal song?

You don't have to post the full song, even just a section will do. I'm particularly interested in hearing how some of you can retain the snare's punchiness on really dense sections.

Then if you're generous enough, a walkthrough on what you did, the sequence, in the boux, out the box, whatever. That'd be really nice.

I just want to make sure I'm understanding everyone here.

METAL SONGS ONLY!
 
NashBackslash said:
Okay, let's try this; can anyone here post a before mastering limiting and after mastering limiting audio example of a metal song?
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Here you are. It is from timboZ mixing competition at this forum some time ago.

Mastered at -14 dBFS rms sine (as I usually do), the master limiter had almost nothing to do, it just could have been normalized as well: http://www.abmischung.de/snippet_14.ogg

Same volume, but peaks are limited to -6 dB: http://www.abmischung.de/snippet_8-6.ogg

And finally boosted by 6 dB, reaching -8 dBFS rms sine, which is a typical level for excessive compressed CD: http://www.abmischung.de/snippet_8.ogg
Then if you're generous enough, a walkthrough on what you did, the sequence, in the boux, out the box, whatever. That'd be really nice.
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Pretty much the same as I suggested above, except for the hard clipping: multi-band-compressor, emulated tape saturation and finally the master limiter.
If that's still not enough, just turn it up and let it clip slightly. Many metal CD's do clip.
 
Here is an example. The unmastered version has been normalized to peak at 0dbfs, so you can see the volume difference from the mastering compression and not the difference plus the headroom that I ended up with while mixing.




 
Farview said:
Here is an example. The unmastered version has been normalized to peak at 0dbfs
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The rms is already -11.77 dB, so it is probably not the kind he has to deal with when he has to reduce 12 dB to begin with.

Also, your mastered version is counterproductive loudness wide as you apparently EQ'ed it to less mid range, which is the part, the human perception is most sensitive.
Here is what can be done to your unmastered example to be really hot at -6.38 dBFS rms sine: http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8830
Same precedure as my example above, and still no clipping.

Unfortunately, the loudness race has no winner.
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
The rms is already -11.77 dB, so it is probably not the kind he has to deal with when he has to reduce 12 dB to begin with.

Also, your mastered version is counterproductive loudness wide as you apparently EQ'ed it to less mid range, which is the part, the human perception is most sensitive.
Here is what can be done to your unmastered example to be really hot at -6.38 dBFS rms sine: http://www.lightningmp3.com/live/file.php?fid=8830
Same precedure as my example above, and still no clipping.

Unfortunately, the loudness race has no winner.
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I sent this out to be mastered. The midrange drop was to keep the guitars from becoming overly grainy and annoying.

I know that the RMS is pretty high, he was asking how to make mixes that crush well. My answer is to make mixes that you don't have to crush as much. Throwing the drums way out front isn't going to help.

I used to mix like that. It sounds great, I wish I could still do it that way, but with as loud as the clients want it, I can't get away with it.
 
Farview said:
Here is an example. The unmastered version has been normalized to peak at 0dbfs, so you can see the volume difference from the mastering compression and not the difference plus the headroom that I ended up with while mixing.




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The first one sounds better to me than the "mastered" version, and also sounds better than limited version LogicDeluxe did. That, is when level matched.

When I get audio that has been limited up to "0", where it's just blasting loud, all I do is turn it down to my normal listening level. That's the thing, most people thinnk they are turning up their master volulme control, but in fact most of the time they are turning it down. When you have volume blasting out at "0" your monitoring volume control is really being used as an attenuator, not a volume boost. When you turn it up what you are really doing is just turning it down less.
 
SonicAlbert said:
The first one sounds better to me than the "mastered" version, and also sounds better than limited version LogicDeluxe did. That, is when level matched.
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It's going to, it's the raw mix. The idea of the mastered version is to get it loud without making it sound too much worse. It would be great if the normalized mix was loud enough, but it isn't.
 
Farview said:
The midrange drop was to keep the guitars from becoming overly grainy and annoying.
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As annoying as excessive loud CD's I suppose. Either you seek a sound one can actually enjoy listening to, or you produce CD's in order to convince the fans not to buy CD's from this artist anymore. If they decide for the latter one, they successfully did this to me several times, unfortunately. Namely Red Hot Chili Peppers, Subway To Sally, Shakira, Santana, Nena, and Mark Knopfler. Also I wouldn't by anything more recent releases from Bob Dylan, U2 or any ABBA remasters for the same reason. I actually avoid any remaster for the same reason if they are not Beatles or Pink Floyd where those in charge actually know how a remaster has to be. Also the golden Tubular Bells is one of the exceptions.
I know that the RMS is pretty high, he was asking how to make mixes that crush well. My answer is to make mixes that you don't have to crush as much. Throwing the drums way out front isn't going to help.
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Just what I have guessed. But naturally, the listener starts to question the abilities of the musicians as well. Is that the purpose of modern CD's nowadays?
I used to mix like that. It sounds great, I wish I could still do it that way, but with as loud as the clients want it, I can't get away with it.
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There is only one answer: Convince them! Did you show them the video in my signature?
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
In that case, I would question the skills of the ME, as he apparently either has dated software/hardware or he doesn't know how to use it properly.

- Reducing by 6 dB doesn't introduce more quantisation noise than a mix done 6 dB quiter has to begin with.
- In 24 bit recording, the noise floor is significantly higher then the quantization noise anyway.
- Importing the mix as float doesn't introduce quantization noise at any kind of editing in the first place.

I always master in float, and the very last thing to do is the 16 bit quantization with noise shape dither. And if it unexpectedly clips after EQ'ing, I can just lower the volume afterwards, since nothing gets lost in float. If the source peaks at 0 or at -30 dB, it really doesn't make any difference to me.
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Ok, you really need to read a good book on DSP. All processing introduces quantization distortion no matter the bit depth. Dither just helps to make it less noticable.
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
As annoying as excessive loud CD's I suppose. Either you seek a sound one can actually enjoy listening to, or you produce CD's in order to convince the fans not to buy CD's from this artist anymore. If they decide for the latter one, they successfully did this to me several times, unfortunately. Namely Red Hot Chili Peppers, Subway To Sally, Shakira, Santana, Nena, and Mark Knopfler. Also I wouldn't by anything more recent releases from Bob Dylan, U2 or any ABBA remasters for the same reason. I actually avoid any remaster for the same reason if they are not Beatles or Pink Floyd where those in charge actually know how a remaster has to be. Also the golden Tubular Bells is one of the exceptions.
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Unfortunatley, you are in the minority. I've never heard a member of the general listening public complain that a CD was too loud, but I have heard people complain that it was too quiet.

LogicDeLuxe said:
Just what I have guessed. But naturally, the listener starts to question the abilities of the musicians as well. Is that the purpose of modern CD's nowadays?
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Why would that be?

LogicDeLuxe said:
There is only one answer: Convince them! Did you show them the video in my signature?
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It will fall on deaf ears (literally) with these guys. The guitar player and the owner of the record company are Guinness book world record loudest guitar player and bass player (respectively). They will not be caught dead having a 'quiet' album.

When the artist and the record company say they want it loud, it ends up loud.
 
masteringhouse said:
All processing introduces quantization distortion no matter the bit depth. Dither just helps to make it less noticable.
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I know that. But who cares when the quantisation noise is typically about 50 dB or more bellow the analog noise floor. Of course, I wouldn't sattle with -30 dB when the converter only does 16 bit.
I see, I'm probably the only one here who doesn't own high end TrueMatch converters with ultra low noise where the quantization actually is the limiting factor. :)
 
Farview said:
The guitar player and the owner of the record company are Guinness book world record loudest guitar player and bass player (respectively).
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Wha...? Does that mean they strum really loud, or does it mean they have access to a lot of speakers and amps? :confused:
 
Reggie said:
Wha...? Does that mean they strum really loud, or does it mean they have access to a lot of speakers and amps? :confused:
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A ton of speakers and amps. It's not really a talent, it's just that they cared enough to assemble a big enough rig to get the guitar to 129.7db spl(in the front row) and the bass to 131.5db spl.

I think the guitar rig consisted of a marshall driving 60 500 watt power amps going into 60 4x12 cabinets. I cant remember what the bass rig was.

It was all part of being the record holders for being the worlds loudest band. The record was taken out of the books because it was decided that it would be a dangerous record to have other people try to break.
 
Farview said:
It was all part of being the record holders for being the worlds loudest band. The record was taken out of the books because it was decided that it would be a dangerous record to have other people try to break.
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Too....many....jokes.........Head....exploding.........Must....resist...................

;) :D

G.
 
Farview said:
I've never heard a member of the general listening public complain that a CD was too loud, but I have heard people complain that it was too quiet.
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Were they from record labels in charge, or were they consumers who finally buy the CD's listening to.
Actually there are quite a lot complaining. Look at this petition for example: http://www.petitiononline.com/RHCPWBCD/petition.html
And I know people who never played "Californications" to the end due to its unbearable sound.
When the artist and the record company say they want it loud, it ends up loud.
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And in complains from them, because no one wants to buy those "white noise albums", but instead of producing better sounding CD's they decide to blame piracy for the lack of interest, and sue random people. One more reason to avoid such CD's. Seriously, if a CD already sounds similar to white noise, why the heck would I even think about downloading an illegal mp3 of it which sounds equally bad at best. And if that's not worse enough, they even produce CD's with trojans on it trying to harm any computer the CD is inserted. I wonder what they come next with in order to prevent even more people from just enjoying the music.

Also they didn't even wonder, why vinyl sales don't drop, eventhough they often cost twice or thrice as much the CD's costs. I'm pretty sure it is related to the fact, that they got a better mastering in many cases. When CD's were produced so much better in the late 80's and the early 90's, no one ever though of buying an inferior vinyl version.
 
LogicDeLuxe said:
And I know people who never played "Californications" to the end due to its unbearable sound.
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I couldn't play it all the way through, but it had nothing to do with how loud it was.
LogicDeLuxe said:
And in complains from them, because no one wants to buy those "white noise albums", but instead of producing better sounding CD's they decide to blame piracy for the lack of interest, and sue random people. One more reason to avoid such CD's. Seriously, if a CD already sounds similar to white noise, why the heck would I even think about downloading an illegal mp3 of it which sounds equally bad at best. And if that's not worse enough, they even produce CD's with trojans on it trying to harm any computer the CD is inserted. I wonder what they come next with in order to prevent even more people from just enjoying the music.
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And yet, they are the ones paying me. They get what they want or they pay someone else. I'd rather get paid.
 
Farview said:
And yet, they are the ones paying me. They get what they want or they pay someone else. I'd rather get paid.
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I hope you insist on not being credited for wrecking the sound then.

If the music industries want to go out of business, it's fine with me. We don't need it anymore. Nowadays, everyone could easily order the CD's directly on the artist's homepage.
 
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