Mastering Digital WAVs for Vinyl 7"
- Thread starter Cody Suit
- Start date
TexRoadkill
Audio Bum
Mastering for vinyl is where the whole art of mastering came into development. If you don't want to waste money on a bunch of unplayable records then have a mastering engineer who knows vinyl master the mixes.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
This is a perfect example of why everybody really needs to stop using the term "mastering" all the time for the stuff that they do to a 2mix, because it's not really mastering. It's like those hip hop newbs that call themselves "producers" when they don't actually do anything resembling actual music production chores.
Just make the mix like you normally would, with one possible exception: don't expect stuff like 808 kicks and stuff that only shows up on the subwoofer side of the crossover to survive to the vinyl with any kind of energy or dynamics. If a heavy suboofer beat is an integral part of you mix, you might want to make a second mix that doesn't depend so much on the under 90Hz stuff and accentuates the beat a bit higer, say in the 100-150Hz range instead, as that might translate easier to vinyl. Otherwise, there's very little you should do different just because you plan on having a vinyl version.
But other than that, let the mastering engineer at the cutting plant worry about the special mastering required to fit the thing into those little grooves. Unless you plan on running the cutting lathe yourself, you won't be doing any mastering, no matter what you do to the 2mix.
G.
Just make the mix like you normally would, with one possible exception: don't expect stuff like 808 kicks and stuff that only shows up on the subwoofer side of the crossover to survive to the vinyl with any kind of energy or dynamics. If a heavy suboofer beat is an integral part of you mix, you might want to make a second mix that doesn't depend so much on the under 90Hz stuff and accentuates the beat a bit higer, say in the 100-150Hz range instead, as that might translate easier to vinyl. Otherwise, there's very little you should do different just because you plan on having a vinyl version.
But other than that, let the mastering engineer at the cutting plant worry about the special mastering required to fit the thing into those little grooves. Unless you plan on running the cutting lathe yourself, you won't be doing any mastering, no matter what you do to the 2mix.
G.
agreed.. if you're mixing an album you simply can't master it.. you can say you're mastering it but really you're still just mixing it.. you mix something until it's as good as you can get it then you send it to get mastered where someone (with fresh ears) tweaks it out and fixes flaws in the mix
it seems completely counterproductive to master your own stuff... kinda defeats the purpose
it seems completely counterproductive to master your own stuff... kinda defeats the purpose
that's absolute nonsense.
one of the reasons vinyl survived is just because it has a much better, more natural bass representation.
or you reckon all those dance dj's do without sub bass???
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
I'm a vinyl guy and I don't agree that vinyl can't reproduce those low kicks.
The issue is more about volume levels versus side length.
If you have a lot of low-end AND you want it to be loud, then you end up with shorter length sides because the modulations in the groove have to be wider which means you can squeeze fewer grooves on a side.
I think that one of the earliest functions similar to 'mastering' ( a term I hate ) was the cutting engineer who would control the lathe so as to squeeze more grooves closer together when the freqs permitted and to space them out to compensate for louder or more bottom heavy parts of the recording.
But I have some Dead Can Dance on vinyl and it has subteranean low bottom end on it that just freakin' kicks ass.
I agree that you should just mix it the same way you normally would .... i.e. .... to mix it to sound the way you want it to sound.
The cutting engineer should take care of the RIAA equalization and such if he's competent.
Everyone seems to feel they have to do their mixes as mastering for the finished product but IMO, the job of the CD/LP pressing plant is to reproduce as exactly as possible whatever you've sent them. That was how it was back in 'the day' at least and theoretically should still be the case. I think that pressing facilities that turn something out radically differently sounding than what you handed them are doing a poor job and avoiding doing it properly.
I've seen several mentions of having a seperate vinyl mix but that's the job of the cutting engineer .... to make whatever adjustments needed to make it suitable for vinyl. You shouldn't have to do that.
The issue is more about volume levels versus side length.
If you have a lot of low-end AND you want it to be loud, then you end up with shorter length sides because the modulations in the groove have to be wider which means you can squeeze fewer grooves on a side.
I think that one of the earliest functions similar to 'mastering' ( a term I hate ) was the cutting engineer who would control the lathe so as to squeeze more grooves closer together when the freqs permitted and to space them out to compensate for louder or more bottom heavy parts of the recording.
But I have some Dead Can Dance on vinyl and it has subteranean low bottom end on it that just freakin' kicks ass.
I agree that you should just mix it the same way you normally would .... i.e. .... to mix it to sound the way you want it to sound.
The cutting engineer should take care of the RIAA equalization and such if he's competent.
Everyone seems to feel they have to do their mixes as mastering for the finished product but IMO, the job of the CD/LP pressing plant is to reproduce as exactly as possible whatever you've sent them. That was how it was back in 'the day' at least and theoretically should still be the case. I think that pressing facilities that turn something out radically differently sounding than what you handed them are doing a poor job and avoiding doing it properly.
I've seen several mentions of having a seperate vinyl mix but that's the job of the cutting engineer .... to make whatever adjustments needed to make it suitable for vinyl. You shouldn't have to do that.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
I should have worded it better, perhaps. I didn't say don't expect to be able to produce those frequencies, I said don't expect to repro them with a whole lot of energy in high dynamics.
There is an actual physical limitation in vinyl as to just how dynamic those low frequencies can be - how much of a virtual crest factor there can be between the LF energy and the rest of the mix - without virtually causing the needle to jump the groove in one direction or having too low of an RMS in the other. In order to fit it all in the groove at a decent level, the vinyl ME often needs to downward compress the LF stuff closer to the mix RMS than it would otherwise be on a digital platform. The frequencies will still be there, but some of the punch will be taken away. What I recommended (as is a common practice, not just my idea) is to help make up for that by enhancing in the second harmonic range where there's a little more room on the vinyl.
All those dance DJs make up for it on playaback with the extensive use of high-wattage subwoofers and (in some cases) dynamic range expansion in the low frequencies. And/or - in the case of some dual-platter scratchers - they use beat tracks on vinyl that are almost all LF, so there is not much to worry about in terms of crest factor between the beats and the rest of the program.
G.
There is an actual physical limitation in vinyl as to just how dynamic those low frequencies can be - how much of a virtual crest factor there can be between the LF energy and the rest of the mix - without virtually causing the needle to jump the groove in one direction or having too low of an RMS in the other. In order to fit it all in the groove at a decent level, the vinyl ME often needs to downward compress the LF stuff closer to the mix RMS than it would otherwise be on a digital platform. The frequencies will still be there, but some of the punch will be taken away. What I recommended (as is a common practice, not just my idea) is to help make up for that by enhancing in the second harmonic range where there's a little more room on the vinyl.
All those dance DJs make up for it on playaback with the extensive use of high-wattage subwoofers and (in some cases) dynamic range expansion in the low frequencies. And/or - in the case of some dual-platter scratchers - they use beat tracks on vinyl that are almost all LF, so there is not much to worry about in terms of crest factor between the beats and the rest of the program.
G.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
yep, if the low end grooves are big enough, they won't virtually jump the groove .... they actualy will jump ..... called mistracking and though some cartridges can handle WAY more than others, there is still a point where the needle can't follow the groove anymore. I'm talking good cartridges BTW, not the low-fi DJ cartridges. Those things'll track almost anything 'cause they track at such high downforces. But they sound poor compared to an audiophile type cart which will typically track at 1.5 to 2 grams.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Yeah, I pulled my punch with the word "virtually" when I shouldn't have.
It's been a while since I've been up to date on the vinyl thing, but in my day (many moons ago, sometime between Davy Crockett and Sonny Crockett
) even 2 grams was heavy for most setups. Typically one balanced their arm (depending upon the specs of the cartrige/stylus make/model, of course) at between 1.25 - 1.5 grams. ...Until you taped the penny to the headshell
.G.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
That's changed ...... Shure reintroduced the V-15 (Mk V I think) a few years back and the vinyl world wasabuzz over it's low tracking weight of 1.5 gms.Yeah, I pulled my punch with the word "virtually" when I shouldn't have.
It's been a while since I've been up to date on the vinyl thing, but in my day (many moons ago, sometime between Davy Crockett and Sonny Crockett
...Until you taped the penny to the headshell
G.
Nowadays carts (audiophile types) track right around the 2 gram mark. I have my Sumiko set for 1.75 grams and most of my other moving coil carts at closer to 2 grams. My MM type carts seem to do ok at that 1.75 weight.
Michael Fremer (my favorite vinyl writer) did a big test and concluded that tracking too low could damage your records as much as too heavy because if the needle doesn't stay down in the groove, it'll actually bounce around in there chipping off chunks of vinyl. Well, nothing should be called chunks in the microscopic world of vinyl but you know what I mean.
The amazing thing about good vinyl rigs sounding as good as they do is that they even work at all!
I mean, if you really think about what's going on with a needle in a groove reproducing all those freqs simultaneously, it's just mind blowing. And yet, in many ways my good vinyl rig (V.P.I. table .. Audioquest arm ..... Sumiko cart ..... Audio Alchemy phono-pre) outperforms my Masterlink although I can't put my finger on any specific differences. But timbres of instruments and that elusive 'space' around them just come across better.
An amazing thing.
Hey Cody ..... put me down for one of your records. I'm a vinylholic and anyone that's gonna press vinyl gets a few bucks from me!
R
RAMI
Guest
Hehe...You know people respect what you say when you're getting called on adjectives and adverbs. Got to watch every word, Glen.
Literally.
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
That was right about the time I was selling that stuff, early to mid 80s. There was a MkIV and a MkV, if I remember correctly (possibly a MkIII as well, as I seem to remember multiple listings in the price book, but I don't remember that for sure.) We also sold the Ortofon and Audio Technica lines, as well as a Stanton that, if I recall, had a model number of 55D or something like that. We also had some esoteric high end moving coil but I can't for the life of me recall the brand, or the brand of the only seperate MC pre we sold. But frankly, I don't remember a single MM cartrige that had a recommended tracking pressure of greater than 1.5g. Now, I may not remember them all, I'll grant you that; but I set up literally hundreds of tables for custys back then, and more times than not the mfr specs called for 1.5g or less back then.
At that time the Stanton was more popular amongst the DJs (for no good reason other than word of mouth, I think), and the Ortofons and the V15 were probably the most popular amongst those with ears. Of course the ATs were the most popular amongst the sales people because they had the highest profit margin and alwya had healthy manufacturer SPIFFs to collect at the end of the day
.
Oh that's absolutely true, and not exactly new news. That was gospel 30 years ago.
I'm only guessing here, but I'm thinking that maybe the higher tracking weights these days are due to more use of lighter weight materials that were just not used or not available 20 years ago? The lower mass of the cartrige/tonearm might call for higher downforce for tracking damping? Just a pull-it-out-of-my-ass guess there.
Well, it's still just an electromagnetic transducer much the same way a microphone capsule or (in the reverse direction) a loudspeaker is (the details vary, but the basic physics are basically the same). Yeah, it is magical in a certain way, but in another way it's so basic and simply elemental. I guess the magic is in the basic nature of nature.
G.
Last edited:
SouthSIDE Glen
independentrecording.net
Well, there are enough people on this board who think I'm a total jackass who call me to the woodshed for the same wordsHehe...You know people respect what you say when you're getting called on adjectives and adverbs. Got to watch every word, Glen.
Literally.
. I play no favorites .G.
R
RAMI
Guest
Well, there are enough people on this board who think I'm a total jackass who call me to the woodshed for the same words
G.
That's ok..I've respected a few jack-asses in my time. I even used to respect myself.
Cody Suit
likes Fast/Heavy music
we're getting a guy to master it and all but im interested in learning more about mastering so eventually i can do it myself...
i'd probabaly need to get more monitors. i was talking to this mastering engineer with 20 yrs experience on the phone for half an hour about it all and he was tellin me some crazy stuff that made alot of sence. just like getting nice low end responce from a bass guitar and a kick drum coming out of a 4 inch TV speaker. just like to get a really commercial sound and all that jazz.
i'd probabaly need to get more monitors. i was talking to this mastering engineer with 20 yrs experience on the phone for half an hour about it all and he was tellin me some crazy stuff that made alot of sence. just like getting nice low end responce from a bass guitar and a kick drum coming out of a 4 inch TV speaker. just like to get a really commercial sound and all that jazz.