Master volume v. track output

B

blipndub

New member
Is it typical to have the master output levels quite high or rather low? To compensate for some clipping I've pulled back the master volume and boosted individual track volumes but this is making it really challenging to overdub and mix. I'm doing my mixing in Cakewalk, with tracks that were recorded pretty hot in general, esp. bass.

I guess the question is: is the mix a reductive or additive process as far as individual track volume is concerned?

Thoughts?
 
Optimum levels as far as the fader linearity is usually the 0 dB level....

Mixing is an additive process in terms of signal level... so there is only a finite amount of headroom to work with before distortion sets in. Set your levels to low and your s/n ratio gets lowered.......

It's all a balancing act and you kinda have to get to know your gear to make the best use of it!
 
"Optimum levels as far as the fader linearity is usually the 0 dB level.... "

God, I love it when he talks fader linearity!:D

Bob
Aurally Challenged
 
Hey, it's a step up from C7sus talking about flogging his elk! (See "American Music Supply" thread for reference)
 
I don't know if this is correct, but it's what I do (flame me if you want, I can take it :) )

I generally try to keep my master fader at 0db and work the track faders down to balance the mix so the "master peaks" are just below 0db. It's a little bit of a juggling act at first, but generally I can get there.

Sometimes (in a rare while) I might get a mix that I think is working well that will clip the master fader. In that case I might back off the master to eliminate the clip. However, if I have to back off more than a 0.5 db or so, I usually go back to the track faders.
 
Everyone's suggestions are serving my mixing well, but I'm wondering about recording levels as well.

I just worked on a 4-track cassette deck before moving everything to the pc and I was always told to have inputs really hot on the 4-track to get a solid sound. But I'm not sure that philosophy applies as well to pc based recording. Should clipping be (generally) avoided at all costs when recording? And if so is it preferred to lower input levels at the source or the destination console?
 
clipping should ALWAYS be avoided during the recording process. you don't want a level so low that you will lose bit depth, but you generally want an average buffer zone of a few db at any point from tracking, to the final mix. if you clip maybe in 1 or 2 spots you should be okay cause that's usually fixable, but it's always good to play it safe and kick it down an extra .5 and do it over again if possible if you experience this.

lower levels on the destination console because you will have a hotter signal with less pc/console noise. What I usually do is bring up the source until it's just a bit lower than where it starts to clip my monitoring.. then adjust on the PC till I have that proper buffer space.
 
I agree with the NEVER clip during recording.

Dach has the right method for setting the main levels. One thing to try on your mixers is to see what the difference in sound is like if the master level is a little lower. One trick the pros use to get better performance out of a budget mixer is to actually run the mix pretty low but send the outputs into a very high quality line level stereo preamp DAC. They let the preamp do the work to raise the level cleanly.

The reason for this is that cheaper mixers often have mix busses that can't handle a lot of work. If you keep the level lower sometimes you can get better bass response and stereo seperation.

This is all a matter of experimentation and learning where the sweet spot is on the gear you have.
 
man.. In Software.. I pull back the Master fader ALL THE TIME. On almost every track.

On a HARDWARE mixer.. I set the master at 0, and work the track faders and trims.... but this aint hardware... and I cant think how to avoid it!!

Clue me in!

If

a) my tracks are pretty hot..

b) The tracks are summed..

Wont I clip? Unless..

a) I attenuate my tracks OR

B) attenuate my master??

If this is true..What is the advantage to attenuating my tarcks and the disadvantage of attenuating my master???

xoxo
 
I will try to answer this one.

Attenuate your tracks... You want to avoid clipping.

When you clip, you lose dynamic range. So if you're attenuating your master your just making the noise less louder... I'm not sure if you understand myself here...

If you attenuate your tracks, and you don't clip, you're recording the whole dynamic range of your instrumentents. Just that it will sound quieter a bit.

So, (if I got it right) you want to attenuate your tracks rather than your master.

If someone opposes to this statements, step up and tell it, right now!

Beathoven
http://www.nowhereradio.com/beathoven/singles
 
What you're saying makes some sense, I think, Beathoven.. But I'd like to give my 2 cents..

Since digital 0db is a virtual wall, you can not increase the volume beyond this point, only perceived volume. To increase perceived volume, you sacrifice dynamics by making the sound more dense.

Looking at 2 waveforms, 1 clipped, and 1 not, the clipped waveform would appear even in volume, all the peaks hitting the wall. This increases the density, but also introduces distortion, because unlike analog, the digital medium does not saturate. The audio just gets "broken", if I might put it that way. That's why we have alot of the plugins we have, to do the job that analog does naturally.

Turning a track up in a mix to where it clips will have the same effect, I think.. Except that the master controls whether it ACTUALLY clips or not. ie. in cubase, you can see tracks setting off their individual clip indicators, but if you have the master turned down, you won't hear it. If the master doesn't clip, and the waveforms themselves haven't been clipped destructively, you're okay. Am I right?
 
Just to add, I remember a post by Sonusman that said that when you are in digital you better keep your tracking levels as similar as your mixing levels as you can. This is because any change in volume uses dsp, which always distorts the sound in one way or another.

So this theory goes against the one that says that you should track as loud as you can without clipping, of course taking for granted that you don't a dynamic-less, almost distorted sound.

I like that theory, not only because it keeps you away from dsp distortion (and maybe doesn't load you machine as much), but also because I like the idea of getting the mix polished from the beginning.
 
I think I've learned some basic lessons in this mixing process.

I've been alternating mixing down existing tracks and occassionally re-tracking sections that weren't "mixing in" well or those that I ended just not liking. But once the levels are set for a mix, it's hard to get them back to good recording levels, or I should say it's hard to remember to set them back!

I wasted an afternoon re-tracking an amped guitar only to learn that the lowered track levels for mixing resulted in super-low tracking levels even if my meters appeared to be hot. Finish tracking before mixing!! But then again how do you know what you need to add before you mix?! Oh the complexity and drama!
 
In digital mixing, the important thing is to make sure there is no clipping going on anywhere in the gain staging. This includes the track faders, all the plug in levels, the aux sends, and the master faders. It doesn't do much good to lower the master fader if the clipping has already occurred earlier in the chain. Check those plug-ins for "red" overload lights just as zealously as the individual track clip LED's.
 
Agreed. Clipping is bad.

BUT.. given that I am NOT clipping at the track level.. just running pretty hot.. I often end up clipping my MASTER buss... just from the summing of all those tracks.

To solve this, I just notch down the master fader a bit... I DONT bring down every track fader a little bit trying to keep the mix srtaight... ?

so I say to the originator... keep tracking hot.. and pull back your master if you clip it, and only it. Naturally if you clip a track you pull it off or limit it or something.

xoxo
 
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