Manipulating listeners with vox levels

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LfO

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I was listeing to an album in the car where the lead vocal level was quite low in the mix - it bugged me until I cranked up the volume to where the vocal was at a normal level (measured subjectively by what I think I'm used to). So, by mixing the vocals low, I was convinced to turn the whole thing up, and listen at a higher volume than I typcially do.

Do you pro mixers (Blue Bear, et al?) take this sort of thing into account? Do you expect listeners to react this way, and do you build mixes around the concept? Would it work the other way (mix vocals high to make the track sound quiter overall)?
 
Whatever works...

Somtimes a quieter vocal will bring the listener in a bit. Sometimes a louder one will stand them off.

The slightly off-topic point is that the mix is probably quite decent if the vocal is able to sit "too quiet" and still be heard properly. I love mixes like that - Where everything has its own space... You can almost do no wrong in the mix.
 
It's a pretty interesting idea. The problem that you might run in to is that singers can have somewhat sensitive egos from time to time. And if you mix their voice low, you're not necessarily going to be making good friends with that singer, nor are you increasing the likelihood of getting future business from him/her. :D

The band will probably love you for it, but frankly, in most of todays music -- and throughout history -- the singer tends to be the focal point of the music, and the vocal the most important track, so as a mixing engineer much of your career will be based on how clear and distinct the vocal track is.

It is interesting, though, and I never quite thought of it the way you put it. But it makes total sense.
 
Massive Master said:
I love mixes like that - Where everything has its own space... You can almost do no wrong in the mix.
Yeah, all of my mixes are like that. :D
 
I personally believe that mixing to "manipulate the listener" in a manner like you describe is bad technique, but that is admittedly a subjective judgement that hinges upon one's definition of "bad". But here's my reasoning on it:

First, who came up with the idea that getting a listener to turn up the music is necessarily a good thing? Many people would find that having to turn up a song to hear it "properly', just to have to turn it down again or be blasted when the next song comes on would be irritating.

Second, turning it up is not always an option. Examples: listening on earbuds where you're already listening to the rest of your music at near-damaging levels, listening in an office, home, or car with passengers, where loud volumes my be socially unaccepted. In such cases, any supposed "marketing value" to such a manipulative mix would have a negative value, not a positive one.

Third - and most important, IMHO - is that one should mix for the demands of the song itself, and not for any external motivation like marketing or manipulation of the listener. If that particular song called for lower-level vocals, then they did the right thing. If the vocals "should" have been forward, but they kept them back as a tease, then I think they did the wrong thing by doing injustice to the song.

If the main purpose of the vocal in the composition and arrangement is basically to provide sound as if it were simply an instrument playing a melody or harmony or solo, and the actual lyrics were somewhat secondary, then it could very well call for a vocal that sits inside the mix. Examples could include anything from R.E.M. with their nonsensical lyrics that carry more melody hooks than verbal information, to Louis Armstrong who sings and scats many of his vocals as if he were playing his horn instead of singing, to the Beach Boys whose vocal arrangements in many songs carried far more impact than the lyrics.

There are even times, for the right music, where low vocals are adding to the "spacey" feel of the song. Imagine much Hawkwind or even some Floyd if they didn't ride some of their vocals roughshod with heavy verb and low gain levels to match the ethereal feel of the rest of the production. It wouldn;t work right.

If, OTOH, the lyrics are one of the main driving forces of the song, it would be, at best, unnecessary to make the listener turn up the sound to get the ipact of the song and, at worst, suicidal to bury them in the mix when they are a major strength of the song. Would you have to (or want to) hold back on the lyrics of your typical Lyle Lovett, Tom Waits or Bob Dylan tune, so that the listener has to turn it up? What's the point?

Bottom line in my personal book: If the producer feels they need to resort to some parlor trick in production to trick the listener into getting interested in a song, that song probably needs to be sent to the Recycle Bin instead of to the duplicator.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
I personally believe that mixing to "manipulate the listener" in a manner like you describe is bad technique, but that is admittedly a subjective judgement that hinges upon one's definition of "bad". But here's my reasoning on it:

First, who came up with the idea that getting a listener to turn up the music is necessarily a good thing? Many people would find that having to turn up a song to hear it "properly', just to have to turn it down again or be blasted when the next song comes on would be irritating.

Second, turning it up is not always an option. Examples: listening on earbuds where you're already listening to the rest of your music at near-damaging levels, listening in an office, home, or car with passengers, where loud volumes my be socially unaccepted. In such cases, any supposed "marketing value" to such a manipulative mix would have a negative value, not a positive one.

Third - and most important, IMHO - is that one should mix for the demands of the song itself, and not for any external motivation like marketing or manipulation of the listener. If that particular song called for lower-level vocals, then they did the right thing. If the vocals "should" have been forward, but they kept them back as a tease, then I think they did the wrong thing by doing injustice to the song.

If the main purpose of the vocal in the composition and arrangement is basically to provide sound as if it were simply an instrument playing a melody or harmony or solo, and the actual lyrics were somewhat secondary, then it could very well call for a vocal that sits inside the mix. Examples could include anything from R.E.M. with their nonsensical lyrics that carry more melody hooks than verbal information, to Louis Armstrong who sings and scats many of his vocals as if he were playing his horn instead of singing, to the Beach Boys whose vocal arrangements in many songs carried far more impact than the lyrics.

There are even times, for the right music, where low vocals are adding to the "spacey" feel of the song. Imagine much Hawkwind or even some Floyd if they didn't ride some of their vocals roughshod with heavy verb and low gain levels to match the ethereal feel of the rest of the production. It wouldn;t work right.

If, OTOH, the lyrics are one of the main driving forces of the song, it would be, at best, unnecessary to make the listener turn up the sound to get the ipact of the song and, at worst, suicidal to bury them in the mix when they are a major strength of the song. Would you have to (or want to) hold back on the lyrics of your typical Lyle Lovett, Tom Waits or Bob Dylan tune, so that the listener has to turn it up? What's the point?

Bottom line in my personal book: If the producer feels they need to resort to some parlor trick in production to trick the listener into getting interested in a song, that song probably needs to be sent to the Recycle Bin instead of to the duplicator.

G.



good point
 
I couldn't disagree more... A mix by design is assembled to affect a listener. The levels of everything are set a certain way to achieve a certain feel. It isn't a "parlour trick" - It's just mixing.

Some people want the vocal to slap the listener in the face - Others want the listener to be "absorbed" into the mix by a subdued vocal. Same with every single other instrument.

"Hot for Teacher" by Van Halen had a very up front vocal track - It was brash, aggressive, unruly - As were the lyrics, as was the topic of the song. It worked that way. Orinoco Flow by Enya on the other hand, had a quiet, washed, blurry, bathed in verb - Almost unintellegible vocal track. You had to apply yourself if you wanted to hear what was being sung. It also worked.

Could you imagine if they were the other way around? Does anyone really want to hear what Enya has to say anyway? :eek:

I think it's anything but a parlour trick - It's the essence of music production.
 
Yea, I'm with Massive on this. Nothing wrong with getting a little creative come mixdown time, so long as everything is cool with the artist and/or producer I suppose. If something happens at mixing that has an impact on the listener, as long as it doesn't cause the listener to go off and shoot someone or worship satan ... I can't seem too much harm in it. :D And I doubt having a vocal mixed too low has ever been the cause for going deaf or starting a holy war. But you never know. Just enjoy the song.

.
 
Massive Master said:
I couldn't disagree more... A mix by design is assembled to affect a listener. The levels of everything are set a certain way to achieve a certain feel. It isn't a "parlour trick" - It's just mixing.
I don't disagree with that as far as it goes. And I also don't disagree with your Van Halen and Enya examples, Your description "Could you imagine if they were the other way around? Does anyone really want to hear what Enya has to say anyway?" is exactly the same thing I was talking about. You are absolutely correct that those songs *work* that way. Just as I said that the various artists I cited also do creative processing and mixing on the vocals as they should.

Nowhere did I say that one shouldn't be creative when it comes to mixing vocals, or that just being creative is what I was referring to as a parlor trick. To say that is to miss my point altogether.

What I'm saying is that one needs to mix to the demands of the music. The Enya example works, John, because that is a solid creative interpretation of what that music - the composition and arrangement - calls for. As you say, doing with the Enya vocals what they did with the Van Halen vocals would not work with that composition and arrangement.

As far as the idea introduced at the start of this thread, the idea of subduing the vocals as an instrument to cause the listener to turn it up, that is a description of a technique whose purpose is independant of, unrelated to, and ignorant of, the content of the song. To ask,"Is subduing the vocals to suck the listener in a good idea?" is no different than asking, "Is applying 10:1 compression at -12dB a good idea?" without any reference to a specific mix of a specific song.

If the mix and the music calls for heavy compression, then by all means do it. If, however, the compression is laid on thick just because the engineer wants to squash the sound to boost the RMS on the final pressing, that's a parlor trick that is independant of the music and that's considered by those who know better (like you ;) ) a bad technique.

It's the same thing here. If the music calls for vocal subduction, then by all means do it. But if it's purpose is solely to trick the listener into turning up the volume, a decision that has nothing to do with the context of the music itself, then it's no more than a parlor trick, and just as bad a technique as compressing just to get volume.

And that's what the original post in this thread was asking; is it a good idea to mix that way as a way of manipulating the user to turn up the volume. My response was that one should devise a mix strategy based upon the demands of the music, not based upon a predetermined idea of how you wish to manipulate the user regardless of whatever the music is.

G.
 
SouthSIDE Glen said:
But if it's purpose is solely to trick the listener into turning up the volume, a decision that has nothing to do with the context of the music itself, then it's no more than a parlor trick, and just as bad a technique as compressing just to get volume.

I see your point, but calling it a "bad technique" is a matter of personal preference. Actually, I'd rather listen to something that isn't as squashed. And if I have to turn up the volume a little in order to hear the vocal better, then I consider that a worthwhile sacrifice.
.
 
I agree, chess - and made this caveat right off the bat in my original post - that my use of the term "bad" is a subjective judgement and certainly open to debate. I'm just not sure how else to put it.

If I were to decide right now that, "In the next project that arrives on my desk - which I have no idea just what it's going to be - I'm going to make a major hook out of the lead guitar track by making it sound like it's being played through a transistor radio", I would consider that "bad" decision making.

When I say that, I'm not saying that transistor radio filtering is a bad idea in and of itself. It has it's place in my tool kit and I'll use it when it makes sense to use it.

All I'm saying is that it's a bad (IMHO) idea to decide to use techniques like that to create an end effect on the listener without prior - and priority - regard for the music itself.

G.
 
Maybe this is just one guy's idea on how he chooses to combat the loudness wars, and he wants to keep the basic idea / concept of slightly quiet vocal consistant accross all of the projects he works on. I don't see where there's anything majorly wrong with it. Everyone has their own philosophies, and depending on how important they are to us, we all tend to do a lot of things by default, whether we realize it or not.
 
Maybe I'm missing something here. From the original post you felt that you had to turn things up in order to hear the vocal properly in relation to the other elements in the mix. As a result you have a louder version of a song that still has the vocals mixed too low in comparison to the other instruments, but can be heard while subconciously trying to filter out the louder elements of the mix in order to hear the vocal properly.

This is a good mixing technique?
 
OK, think I may have figured out the right way to frame where I have a problem with the concept originally postulated at the start of this thread...

There is a difference between mixing to manipulate a song and mixing to manipulate a listener.

John was right in that creative mixing is used to grab the user's interest, sometimes even to slap them in the face once in a while. That is a huge part of what creative mixing is all about. But the way to do that (again, IMHumbleO) is by making the song sound interesting, by making the user want to listen to it because it sounds good, it's delivering a message, and/or it's delivering an emotion that the listener can enjoy.

The idea of "manipulating the user to get them to turn up the volume" is entirely different. It's making the user turn up the volume so they can find out if the lyrics are interesting or not. It's NOT saying. "Hey this is a great sounding song, turn it up." It IS saying, "Hey, if you want to find out if you like this song, turn up the volume."

It's manipulation for the sake of marketing the song, not manipulation for the sake of making the song sound better. That is NOT creative engineering, that is creative marketing, and therefore does not belong in the realm of audio engineering unless, like the stupid volume wars, the engineer is directed to by his idiot paymasters.

G.
 
True - Blantant "trickery" to get the listener to endanger their tweeters is a little out of what I'd consider "nice."

But on the flipside - I find it pretty cool when bands pull the "Rick Rubin" card by putting an "intro" on the first track that's a whisker on the quiet side - If they can get the listener to turn up the volume before the "meat" comes in, they don't have to make the end product so loud.
 
Couldn't it be the other way round? As your voice is lower, the mix CAN be turned up higher in volume (and may intended to be heard that way) without offendig your ears? If you consider stuff like e.g. Offspring, they often have their voice quite low, as they expect people to hear the stuff rather loud. OTOH, have you ever been to a LOUD concert with a rather high voice? Shrill to your ears? I very often go to concerts with my earsafe plugs, as I simply hate the sound of too loud vocals (esp. female)...

aXel
 
Massive Master said:
I find it pretty cool when bands pull the "Rick Rubin" card by putting an "intro" on the first track that's a whisker on the quiet side - If they can get the listener to turn up the volume before the "meat" comes in, they don't have to make the end product so loud.
Agreed. One of my favorite examples of that was executed by Brian Humphries (I think?) in the intro of the Pink Floyd song "Wish You Were Here" when it goes from the intro bars of heavily filtered, low-gain guitar to the "full-blown" un-filtered acoustic. It's like using shadows to emphasize the light. But I think that falls under the "creative manipulation of the song" banner, as it's a method of enhancing the experience of the song, not a blatent attempt to manipulate the user into promoting the song through bad mixing.
volltreffer said:
OTOH, have you ever been to a LOUD concert with a rather high voice? Shrill to your ears? I very often go to concerts with my earsafe plugs, as I simply hate the sound of too loud vocals (esp. female)...
Oh, absolutely. More times than I care to count, as a matter of fact. But - in my expereince, anyway - that most often that happens for one of three reasons; either it's just bad FOH mixing, or a PA system with the high-mids response a bit too excited, or a drummer who beats the skins so hard that they have to pump some of the PA channels into overdrive to compete with it.

I actually have to deal with that last problem quite a bit with one of the live bands I work for. Their first-string drummer is one of the best and most in-demand drummers in the Chicagoland area (he currently has almost 30 bands that vie for his time either on the road of in the studio). But this guy is LOUD. If you think it's impossible to send a Beta58 into distortion, you haven't yet had a baratone lead singer using it when he's trying to get his vocals over the top of this guy's drums :eek: . The loud vocals can really sound horrible unless/until we can get the rhythm section to dial it back off of eleven a bit.

G.
 
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