making a drum track

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wfaraoni

wfaraoni

ear art's not a science
Ok maybe some or one or any of you can help me. Ive been writing songs for years and they have always been composed of me and my guitar. Now Id like to record them at as proffesional a quality as I can in Sonar.
The problem is how do you create a drum trac for an existing song.

Ive tried hitting the drum keys of my yamaha keyboard drums, with midi over a prerecorded track. That didnt work out very well!

Ive tried getting the keyboard to play one of its drum styles which kind of go with the song. but then you have all the places where the drums need to change to accent the song. Its in my head but I cant get it to sync with a song. I even tried adding another track with the accents and rolls made by the first method but that was terrible.

I tried the session drummer but my songs dont seem to keep a steady beat throughout. Theres always a verse that runs differently. Not a chorus but a midstream change as many songs have.

Ive played very little drums but actually owned a set once. I Dont anymore. My friend has a machine you can bang on but it sounds BAAD as in lousy. I dont think that thats an answer for me either.

I did not want to spend much on this so basically my question is directed at how do I use my existing tools to get a drum track.
ANY suggestuions are appreciated.
I ear some pretty darn good drum tracs out there how do you do it?
 
I think you're solution is to record the best fitting drums as audio into your project - you can then cut them up to make them fit exactly. Ideally, you should use the basic drum part to record everything else to, then produce the fills to fit the changes. Fitting drums to a song record in the players natural timing is a nightmare - playing to some kind of "click track" first is a skill you should develop. There is no need for it to sound mechanical and you can insert tempo changes if you want speed ups & slow downs. If you don't work like this, you will have do do lots of tedious editing to make a programmed pattern fit - not impossible and would be educational - or play the drums through "live" but drums should carry the song - not follow it.
You may notice that Sonar won't let you hear the metronome until you record something - Duh! Fortunately, you already know how your song goes so I would start with the nearest drum pattern you have and work up something better when you have the main song parts recorded.
 
Jim y

Im not sure what your saying by "record the best fitting drums as audio"? Ultimately its all becomes audio. where do I get audio drums? play my keyboard through the amp and mic it, maybe?
I have some wave drum clips that are pretty good but they are only 1 beat at a time. I have not tried to put them together in a basic beat but Im sure thats real time consuming and difficult to edit later.
I fooled around with fruity loops but there must be a trick to that for it to be so popular.
I realized that the drums have to set the basic tempo to play to and that trying to insert drums into audio is a nightmare IMHO.
 
There is some very good software out there. One that is very easy to use is called Drag and Drop drummer. This one gives you one bar drum parts and fills (only in 4/4 time). You just choose the one you want and Drag and drop it into the track. However, it's very limeted. You only get a few timpos and a few beats for each one.

A better choice IMHO is something like fruity loops. With this one you can write your own drum parts and fills as well as just about any other insterment you might need to back you up. If you don't like the sounds that come with it, you can record your own and use them.

I use fruty loops for doing arrangements and such, so I can play songs for the people I'm working with. I wouldn't be surprized to find out that Moby uses something like this for everything except the guitars.
 
This is a perennial problem for us non drummer types! The easiest method is to search the web for drum loops, preview the one you want, download it, import it into Sonar as a wav/MP3 file and copy and paste to your hearts content to produce a drum backing as long as your song.

Another method is to use the piano roll view, midi, soundfonts, your keyboard and/or your Virtual Piano software etc to hammer out a drum beat, one drum/cymbol etc at a time and save them to a midi track. Using Piano roll view it is then dead easy to change the timing, introduce variances, new drum sounds/patterns etc.

I have the full version of Fruity Loops and find it sooooo difficult to use to get a natural sounding drum beat. Good for techno/dance/trance though.
 
You are definitely putting the cart before the horse,you should practice playing with drumbeats and develop this skill (I once went through this same situation).
If you find this to be hindering your creative flow an alternative would be to record some percussion instruments after the fact.Things like tambourines,shakers,etc...
It's amazing what a little bit of percussion can do to an acoustic track.

Having said that even playing a shaker can be a chore for the rhythmically challenged (I know!)

GOOD LUCK!
 
What Acidrock suggests is quite correct. On one of the best MP3 HoRec home recordings I have ever heard, a singer/songwriter guy from Scotland described how he had used an upturned acoustic guitar as a drum, plus he made a shaker from an empty tin can and put some rice in it. The effect was stunning.

Like everything, experiment til it hurts!
 
Once a buddy and I made a rhythem track with a lettus crisper and some toy keys from his baby's play pin. It did sound sorta cool.

He and I used to do 2 track recording on his stereo L & R inputs.
 
Funny but not very helpful

Hey you guys are funny, but who of you uses a cheeze grater and pair of spoons and a ten quart pot for making percussion. We did that years ago when a buddy of mine and I where hanging out playing and the girls wanted to get into the groove. We thought it was pretty good at the time, Um, it could have also been used as a barometer of our intoxication!

.
I guess Ill try and learn to use one of the many programs out there for this.
Any suggestion on which programs are the best for making an investment in? Dont forget the about learning curve. Is acid 3 worth learning or is it really worth the time it takes to master fruityloops. I dont know very much about these programs but any other suggestions ouside of a set of tupperware will will be appreciated.

Ps. I can play the drums as I have a set in the past, but electronic sets run at least $400 and a real set consumes far too much space.
 
What version cakewalk do you use?
If you have hs2002 or sonar theres no need for acid, as it supports acidized loops.
You can vary the tempo of midi or loops within cakewalk so that should'nt be a problem.
However I think some good old fashion woodsheding is the real answer to your dilemma and maybe your just looking for a magic pill to solve it.
If you're really serious you could consider getting a real drummer but sometimes the best solutions are the most expensive.
 
I didn't find it hard to learn fruity Loops at all. I just started buying drummer mags and a book or two about how to play drums and that was about it. I also use it for adding bass and sometimes keyboards.

The down side is that you don't have anybody to exchange ideas with and if your not careful everything can start to sound the same.
 
Biting the bullet!

At some point in this equation your going to have to bite the bullet and address the learning curve.
You already have all that you need to achieve the desired results. Here is a copy of a previous posting I did which should be of help. For your situation, keep everything in midi till you have the timing and feel to your taste. Then move on to the all important sound. Spend time with this, and you "WILL" get a result. The secret is your patience.

“Real” Drums
This may or may not be news, or useful but here goes. I know a lot of you guys have got this covered, but some won’t, so hence the step by step approach. I do not consider myself to be all knowing on this one and the mere mention of the word “midi” has me running for garlic and a crucifix, the reason I write this is because I just wish someone had told me this a long time ago and saved me the time and frustration of sussing it out for myself.

I use Cakewalk Pro 9 and the SoundBlaster Audigy
(any SB card will do, it’s the Soundfonts you need)
Take one midi drum pattern that loosely fits the style your looking for. (Import or open into track view). Then cut, dice and splice to make a complete drum track, adjusting tempo where needed. So now you have the drum track sorted but it sounds like shit because its playing GM drums which would not convince a five year old.
Now, how to make it sound real. (Timing & Sound)
No drummer plays like a machine, so you’ve gotta humanize the pattern by moving things round a bit. Check to see if your sequencer has a “humanize” function in the midi fx section. If not your gonna have to do it manually by “shifting” “sliding” (whatever your particular sequencer calls it) one way or the other, the individual notes in the piano roll view.
Now you’ve got the timing and feel to your taste. Which in itself is a very objective and personal thing. Here’s the biggie “the sound”.
All hail the great god Soundfonts.
Firstly your gonna need some, good ones preferably and free would be even better. This is the best site I know for free Soundfonts. www.thesoundsite.net
Check under Soundfonts/Compressed (less download time) oops nearly forgot, before you go downloading any your going to need the utility to uncompress them called SFPACK which you will be happy to hear is free from the same site in the utilities section. It’s basically winzip for soundfonts.
Scroll down to the drum section at the site and download whatever works for you, try lots of different kits (there are plenty to go at) as the “sound” factor is a very personal thing. The one I tend to use a lot is Drums Douglas Natural Studio Kit V2.0 (22,719KB) once you’ve got it downloaded you’ll need to uncompress it using the sfpack utility, and save it to wherever works for you. At this point I can only tell you what I do in Pro 9 this may differ in other sequencers. Come to think of it, there may be easier ways of doing this, this is just the way I do it.
Open the midi drum track you’ve already worked on and place it in track 1.
Now got to “Options” – “Soundfonts” – “Attach” locate the drum kit and hit “Open”.
You now have that Soundfont loaded on bank 1 – hit “Close”
Now open “track properties” by double clicking on “source” in the “track pane view”
Channel = 1. Bank = the Soundfont you loaded. Patch = the kit you want to use.
Bank select method = Controller 0. Port = Soundfont device.
Now hit OK and listen to the track………Mmmm that’s better.
Maybe it’s not quite how you want it, maybe some sounds are missing. Not to worry, there is lots more to do yet. Go into the “piano roll view” where you will see all the different notes laid out and a piano style keyboard to your left. Click on the keys to see what sound is attached to which key and more to the point what notes are attached to a blank key and need moving. (sometimes they will be just where you want them, and sometimes not, depends how they where made up) Click a key to highlight all the notes on that line, then click, hold and drag up or down to the key that has the sound you need ie: snare, kick or whatever, Making sure not to move it left or right in the time frame. Now you have all the notes assigned to the sounds you want and the drum track should now be sounding a whole heap better already. That’s the ground work done, now we can get creative.
Select the midi drum track and go to “Edit” – “Run Cal” – open the Cal folder and select “Split notes to track”. Assuming the track you want to split is on track 1, Source track = 1. Final destination track = 2. Destination channel = 1. Destination port = 1. Click Ok and you should have the drum track split to individual tracks and all playing the chosen Soundfont. Then record each track to audio, left, right, stereo channel, whatever. (Arm a track to record audio, solo the track you want to record and make sure your recording from the midi channel or “what you hear” channel) Repeat this till you’ve got them all. Take the time to get your recording levels as good as poss, as this is a far better option than “Normalizing” everything later. This will get you nice big fat wav files and the levels can be done in the mixer. At this point you can mute all the midi tracks and keep them where they are for reference or re-recording. Or delete them all if your happy with what you’ve got. Now open up your mixer and start messing with levels, recording automation and the like. The great thing is, that now you have real drum sounds individually laid out on there own tracks and there are in audio format. Now you can spend many happy hours messing around with all your favorite plug-ins, Reverb, Comp, Gate, EQ and all, until your reach sonic Nirvana.

Having said all that:
This in no way is ever going to beat a good drummer sitting at a good kit, all miked up and run through a desk. But the point is we don’t all have that option available to us, and need to do the best we can from within what we’ve got. Which in most cases (certainly mine) is one guy sitting in a room, with computer and associated bits and pieces. I aint saying this is what you should do, I’m just saying it’s what I do, and it works for me.

If there is a better or easier way, please let me know, I need the help.
Hope this helps somebody somewhere.

Alan
 
Thanks for the great resonse

Acidrock:
Yes a magic pill would be nice but I learnrd in the 60's that sometimes the magic is all in your head:: Yes Im using sonar 2. Kinda of wanna do this whole thing myself though I may try a collab with a drummer I know if the drum track takes me longer than the everything else put together.

64 firebird:
Ill give the fruit another try. I only played with it for a bit so far,then Ill try some of ALANS tricks above and see which is the better deal for me . Sounds like a time management problem either way. It seemed like the fruityloops are designed with techno/hiphop as the basis but Ill have to actually see what I can do with it. If it works out well I may skip the midi thing.

Alan:
Your response is well written and it makes sense, sounds like a good approach. Though a lot of work, see magic pill desired above. Once you get your method down what kind of time expense do you typically have to dedicate to get a track down?

I'm probably being too anxious to actually get something recorded which sounds halfway good. I threw something together without dedicating any time to planning and I used the wrong equipment because I wanted to try to apply the stuff I had just learned in sonar. Its a lot different than the cakewalk copy a guy gave me and I gave up on about 5 years ago! I struggled to get sonar under my belt as a realistic recording option, and I can now see that you can do some really fantastic things with it.

I posted a song Im working on in a response to a thread that teacher started about a week ago. Considering that I only spent a couple of hours on it, its not too bad. But the drums will gag you if you can hear them and my vocals need a better day and next time Ill use the good mic. The guitar is thin but that was also a equipment problem, (used a cheap bass amp to mic the guitar because mine was not as easily available),these are things that wont happen next time.
I really needed to get some ideas on the drums because I used midi keyboard/drums by trying to hit the drum keys in real time, while monitoring the guitar part. They came out off time and sounding like a cheap toy drum machine It really sucked and I did not have any other GOOD solutions. Thus this posting . I redid them again and the timing was better but the sound still sucked. I used the tape/sim feature on them and doubled the track and they sounded alot better but still not very good. The posted song is the first really bad recording . I dont know where I put the better one I did later. It sounds like your solution will help the cheap sound and the rest is hard work cutting slicing and dicing everything to fit.
 
Ill give the fruit another try. I only played with it for a bit so far,then Ill try some of ALANS tricks above and see which is the better deal for me . Sounds like a time management problem either way. It seemed like the fruityloops are designed with techno/hiphop as the basis but Ill have to actually see what I can do with it. If it works out well I may skip the midi thing.

Fruity Loops does seem like that at first. I had to build my own drum kit before I got what I wanted out of it.

Another thing that FL offers is that you can very the amount of stress on any given sound (how hard the drum is hit). This also helps to give a more realistic sound.
 
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