Lyrical Poetry, Poetic Lyrics

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Synesthesia

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Here's a question from me, I guess just to spark some discussion. Frequently I find that writing lyrics is the hardest part of composing for me. Usually, the music and the melodies come pretty easily, but I have to wrack my brain for lyrics that don't sound cheesy as hell. My question is, how do YOU go about writing lyrics? What's your inspiration, your methods? Do you write your lyrics as poetry and then add a melody to them? Speaking of poetry, what do you think the relationship between it and musical lyrics is?

Just trying to get my foot into the door here. :D Oh yeah, and if this has been discussed 556,203,087 times on the board already, sorry! I'm new, as you can tell...

-Derrick
 
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For me, it's just the opposite, lyrics come fairly easily, but composing melodies is like pulling teeth. As a result I have many more lyric sheets than I do completed songs.

Re the poetry aspect, I think it really varies. While some poems can make good songs, they have to have a rhythmic quality that may not stem from the poetry itself. For me the meter of a poem is is seldom the same as a song.

When I first started writing, I wrote something more akin to poetry and tried to adapt it to being a song. Over time I learned lyric writing and now what I write would not pass for good poetry. A few of my storytelling songs might be able to pass as poems, but not others.

As far as inspiration for lyrics, the old cliche of writing about what you know or experience works for me, but you have to make sure that it's not so personal as to be inaccessible to other people.
 
Nearly all my lyrics could work as poetry, all of them if you think in a modern sense. The lyrics come extremely easily to me (to people's amazement, oddly), and I let someone else do the extra music. I, personally, don't care for much poetry. I like some of frost's catchy tunes and dickinson's morbid fantasies. But besides that I'm not very well read.
 
my method is usually as follows:

1. screw around with guitar
2. come up with a few decent rythms that happen to sound good together in sequence
3. think of good vocal melodies, just humming a lead, basically
4. write lyrics with rythms in mind (usually holding the guitar so i can actually sing them along while i'm writing them)
5. revise lyrics and rythm sequence to better get across whatever the song has become

step 5 may take years to get straight. i don't really believe that songs are ever totally done-as i get better at guitar and vocals, i might add some transitional bits that weren't there before-but once i've written and memorized a song (IN THAT ORDER), the basic flow/words remain the same.

i have taken poems and written guitar parts to flow under them, but that typically involves poems that are rather old, and i'm not in the same frame of mind as i was when i wrote the poem, so i prefer to take the music i'm digging putting out on the guitar and whatever i'm preoccupied with at the moment, and try to meld them while both are fresh (i find that guitar lines can sit on a shelf for awhile, as each time i play the guitar parts i'm working with, they seem fresh until they are anchored with lyrics typically, unless it's an instrumental, in which case this whole process is more or less irrelevant beyond the first couple of steps)

i'm still trying to work up the gumption to come up with interesting guitar parts for classical poetic meter. i can't seem to do it (i mean things like iambic pentameter sonnets-many of my songs have a consistent rythm/rhyme, though i would not call most of it classical)
 
Normally, I start with either a guitar or a keyboard and start to "vamp" this will lead me to a general groove/chord pattern. Once I have that basic pattern, it normally inspires a lyrical phrase or two - which I then try to build on.

I do "compile" certain lyrical phrases or concepts inspired by chance encounters or observations, which I keep in a note pad to insert into a future composition - but most of my lyrics come as a result of a melodic/harmonic/rhythmic concept that comes from "playing around on an instrument".

I do find that songs that I start on guitar tend to lean more toward a rock/funk "riff" oriented groove - and the lyrics developed from that tend to be more "aggresive". Whereas songs that start on the keyboard tend to develop a more melodic jazz/ballad groove which then results in deeper, more "meaningful lyrics".

Once I start working on the song structure and the general arrangement, I often go back and forth from guitar to keys to see which instrument helps me develop the sopng the best.

I've never really considered myself a "poet". According I rarely have an entire "poem" prepared prior to the music. My lyrics lean more toward being a story teller or social commentator. I often write in the third person - and I try very hard to avoid the oft repeated "lovers angst" type of songs. In any case, the melody, harmony and rhythem are what tend to shape the lyrics.
 
I don't consider poetry and lyrics one in the same. To me, a great song is one where you can play over and over and it doesnt get old. If it has lyrics, then the lines have to have the same intensity and feel of the song, regardless of what is said. That means the diction and the way it is presented has to be reflected in just the right manner. With lyrics, how you say something is far more important than what is said. (Great examples of this are Sabbath's "Fairies Wear Boots" and a number of Beatle's tunes including "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" and "Everybody's Got Something To Hide Except for Me and My Monkey").

What works best for me is to have the music written before the lyrics. I then explore the depth of the music to determine what kind of lyrics best fit the mood of the piece. If I'm doing a soft acoustic ballad, then I am not going to write angry lyrics about the human race. Likewise, if I am writing pounding metal thrash, I'm not going to go on and on about how much I love my wife or kittens.

Once I determine the general feel of what I should write about, then I listen to the song without lyrics and scat a melody line, finding words and thoughts that sound right, and trashing anything that sounds phonetically awkward and amateurish. Getting the point across with the right turns of phrases can take years, but in the end it's tenfold worth the work.

Cy
 
Once I determine the general feel of what I should write about, then I listen to the song without lyrics and scat a melody line, finding words and thoughts that sound right, and trashing anything that sounds phonetically awkward and amateurish.
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That's often a problem for me...I'm not too adept at deciding what sounds awkward or amateurish. I guess that's what years and years more of songwriting will bring me. I wish I were better with words...maybe I should've been an English major. :)

-Derrick
 
"Poetic lyrics" almost always sound ridiculous. You should never take yourself too seriously, ever. Poetry in songs usually sounds self important, not to mention shallow and dim-witted. If you think you need to write like Dylan, remember his best stuff was a joke, literally.

Its a song. The words have to have rhythm. If they mean something, thats nice. If the words move you, even better. The music is the most important thing, just don't let the words get in the way of the music.
 
Originally posted by ashulman
Its a song. The words have to have rhythm. If they mean something, thats nice. If the words move you, even better. The music is the most important thing, just don't let the words get in the way of the music.
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I absolutely agree with this. I'd be quite screwed if I thought otherwise, since I'm so bad at writing lyrics. :( But when I do write lyrics, it's almost always with the intent of at least a little humor, however dark.

My other defense mechanism is to make lyrics that are so surreal that they make little to no sense. How can you call those pretentious? ;)
 
I don't think its pretentious if you are just having fun but gobbleygook is a lot harder to pull off than it seems. Lennon and Dylan were masters of this because they never lost their sense of humor or sense of rhythm - "expert texpert choking smokers don't you think the joker laughs at you" - listen to the repeated 'o' rhymes, and how the emphasis of these words comes down on the beat of "I am the Walrus". That is surreal genius.
 
Oh, I don't hold any illusions that I have the barest fraction of the skill that Lennon or Dylan had, but they certainly are models of inspiration for my lyric writing. If I can write lyrics that are a third as humorous and rhythmically perfect as their worst stuff...I'll be one happy dude...

-Derrick
 
"If I can write lyrics that are a third as humorous and rhythmically perfect as their worst stuff...I'll be one happy dude"


I agree completely.
 
Peter D said:
For me, it's just the opposite, lyrics come fairly easily, but composing melodies is like pulling teeth. As a result I have many more lyric sheets than I do completed songs.
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I'm in the exact same situation. What instrument do you play? I studied a little classical piano in college, and now I am finally getting (a little) somewhere at playing the guitar, but not yet to the point that I "own" the neck & can just screw around and make tunes - that's a loooooong way off ... BUT I think I can get there. I *suspect* that writing music is, in it's own way, a little easier than writing lyrics because harmony and melody impose thier own structure. But I also believe that you have to have some degree of fluency in your hands before it stops being like pulling teeth.

Layla
 
Layla Nahar said:
I *suspect* that writing music is, in it's own way, a little easier than writing lyrics because harmony and melody impose thier own structure. But I also believe that you have to have some degree of fluency in your hands before it stops being like pulling teeth.
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I'd say it's like any other skill; you get better at it the more you do it. And it gets more fun, too, once things like theory and structure of a song start to come naturally. I'm no master composer by any means, but I'd say I'm at a point where I'm pretty comfortable just thinking up a random melody or chord progression and going from there pretty quickly.

I'd guess lyrics can be thought of the same way...though I also suspect that one needs a sort of inherent talent with language in order to be able to write brilliant lyrics. Which, unfortunately, I don't think I have. :( But, I'll get by any way I can.

-Derrick
 
Layla, I was a drummer by trade, but took up the guitar specifically for writing. That was 35 years ago and my proficiency on it is moderate, but I have a rather odd picking/strumming pattern which seems to work for me based on Maybelle Carter's chickenscratch method. I use my thumb and middle and ring fingers, where she used thum, index and middle fingers. Three years ago I took up mandolin to add some color to my work tapes/demos. I do some basic melody composing using piano or a keyboard, but it is very basic.

I think you're right, that composing should be easier because of the structure of melody and harmony, but for me it's the composing that comes almost painfully.

The biggest probem I've found with composing is that I'm usually unable to replicate on guitar or keyboard the music I compose in my head. Because of that and other considerations, I've tried to delve into theory and improve my playing skills, but it's been slow going. While I like working with composers, it's incredibly difficult to find people with a similar music vision. I've taken to doing blues and jazz lyrics because there is actually some demand for them from local club singers looking for original material.
 
Synesthesia said:
Frequently I find that writing lyrics is the hardest part of composing for me. Usually, the music and the melodies come pretty easily, but I have to wrack my brain for lyrics that don't sound cheesy as hell.
....what do you think the relationship between it and musical lyrics is?
-Derrick
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Well at least you recognise your own lyrics are cheesy, and want to do something about it, that is a good sign.

I think constant revision is the only way. Some people are fortunate in they can write a lyric which is near perfect first off and needs little revision. But most of us aren't that clever. I think you need to read EVERY line and look carefully for missed meanings which might sound silly or odd. Look at each word and check to see if it is one you'd commonly use in conversation, or is it something you'd only find in a text book or romantic novel!

There are many techniques documented elsewhere including taking an existing lyric as a base and going through changing each line, but keeping the rhythm and structure. Another method I use is to just write down any ideas or phrases or lines for the song and edit them down later. That way you don't get hung up on trying to find a rhyme, whilst good ideas are disapearing out of your head.

Reading does no harm at all. Dylan has been mentioned - he read a lot and I believe some poetry too.

If you have an idea for a sonmg lyric first wirite it as a little story how you want it to start, develop and end, then set about turning that into a lyric, maybe with rhymes.

Truth is, some people will never write a 'good' lyric if it's not in them. Not everyone can do it and its silly to suggest otherwise, just like not everyone can be a great footballer.

The relationship between music and lyric is like the sea and the sky, you can look at them separately, but you can't have one without the other and they are best appreciated together. Poetic eh!
 
I don't think that poetry is important to writing good songs. Very few song lyrics work as poems, but that's because they are not poems, they're songs. Poets don't have the luxury of having the music to tie the words together. Music is the energy, or glue, or whatever you want it to be.

I'm happy with that, poetry bores me to tears.
 
Peter D said:
Layla, I was a drummer by trade, but took up the guitar specifically for writing.

The biggest probem I've found with composing is that I'm usually unable to replicate on guitar or keyboard the music I compose in my head. Because of that and other considerations, I've tried to delve into theory and improve my playing skills, but it's been slow going.
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Interesting - I'm a percussionist! I have been playing arabic percussion for about 5 years. I have *finally* found good people to play with - a core of 3 morrocans, and me. The goal is to arabic 'general business' - weddings etc, in our region. Wish us luck.

I have been playing guitar now for not very long (two months) How long have you been at working on guitar? How much do you practice a day. I try to do one hour. I can sing & play one song OK. I'm hoping that in a year I can actually perform. I wonder if, as a hand percussionist, that might have given me some advantage in finger strength when moving to the guitar?

One thing I am *really* looking forward to doing is being able to play fast enuf to write really energetic up-beat songs. What I currently write is slow, pensive. I'd much rather pick people up & take them out of negativity.

--
(oh - Strtj,
I'm the same. Generally poetry bores me. But a good lyric - that's something else)
 
Layla, I don't think being a percussionist will give you much advantage when it comes to playing guitar really - i've been playing guitar many years but put me on a drum kit and I'm useless.

I think there can be tie-ins, like if you can play keyboards then you will understand chord progressions and the notes that make upo chords and that may be useful for guitar and vice-versa. In general if you play one musical instrument I'd say you have an advantage over someone who's never played anything.

But no doubt someone wil disagree with me!
 
I think being a percussionist might give you an advantage on guitar in that you're probably already skilled at doing one thing with one hand whilst doing an entirely different thing with the other. This will help guitar fingerings immensely. I started guitar off a diet of 8 years of trumpet playing, and that was a difficult transition. If I were to pick up my trumpet now, though, I'd barely be able to play a scale...

-Derrick
 
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