Lower Levels..Better Mixes ??

[Stealthtech]

It's funny how you are told certain things and stick with the same tecnique all the time. I remember hearing once or twice that your tracks such as guitar, drums, and vocals should be set on playback to their highest level without clipping to get a full loud song, but I was working on a song tonight and discovered that adjusting the levels lower was giving me a much better and clearer mix with a lot more control and headroom. Does this make sense ? Im still learning how to get a great mix and this just kinda came outa nowhere, and I think it has made a big difference in the fact that Im using monitors now instead of my home stereo. What I dont know yet is if the final mix will be too low even though the main output is kicking at a good high level.

 

[crosstudio]

i agree that your individual tracks should be brought up to a nice loud level so that you don't have to jack up your main output, but i don't agree with mixing loudly. a nice level yes, but not loud.

 

[gilwe]

I generally do not use extreme levels, not too high and not too low. I hate to "normalize" the resulted track so I pull up the master level to the desired recording level.

 

[Teacher]

i personally try to get my final mix at between -6db to -3 db w/o clipping. SO when i do my "mastering" i don't have to level gain to much with compression and/or limiting

 

[mixsit]

I'm lost.
Are we talking track/vs main levels, analog, digital(?), monitor playback levels? All of the above?

 

[gilwe]

Well, I'm talking mixing analog from the mixer into the PC,
I usually use "conservative" levels on the mixer,
verifying that non of the channels are going into clip,
yet at high levels, and about -3 to -2 DB input on Soundforge.

 

[ambi]

if i bring any of my faders in logic much above 0dba my main output clips. I can put a brickwall limiter on that, which i normally do for a final output, but i don't want to just put a limiter on my master and jack up all the tracks until my mix is a god damn square.

Anyways around this?

 

[sjoko2]

It's funny how you are told certain things and stick with the same tecnique all the time. I remember hearing once or twice that your tracks such as guitar, drums, and vocals should be set on playback to their highest level without clipping to get a full loud song

I think you might have read or understood something wrong here.
It is certainly true that its good practice to get a decent level to tape / disk when you are tracking, but at playback? Those levels depend entirely on their required balance in a song.

 

[Stealthtech]

Re: Re: Lower Levels..Better Mixes ??

I think you might have read or understood something wrong here.
It is certainly true that its good practice to get a decent level to tape / disk when you are tracking, but at playback? Those levels depend entirely on their required balance in a song.

You're comment is exactly what Im referring to...
I probably should have explained a little better. I do try to get the maximum input level on all tracks when Im recording. Im refering to playback levels. I always thought I should bring up the main tracks to the maximum output on playback. It has worked out ok, but always sounded somewhat muddy. What I discovered is that bringing the individual tracks down to a medium level is allowing more headroom to bring up the vocals and other tracks that you want to stand out in the mix. I think I was missing this until I got a good set of monitors that allow for a much better representation of what you hear. I actually feel somewhat stupid that Im just now realizing this after 4 years of recording !
Mixing is without a doubt a never ending learning experience.

 

[Julia]

a question re: normalization

I did a search on this board to learn something about normalization issues, and wanted to ask a question on this particular thread, please...

I orchestrated nine songs. I mixed them, and mastered them, but I had recorded some too low, etc...I was just learning how to use this Boss Br-1180CD at the time.

What I've done now is that I had the final mastered tracks on two stereo tracks...and I normalized those. Is that okay?

These are orchestrations which kids are singing to, and I'm about to record the children's vocals. They will thus be singing to the already mixed, mastered, and now normalized orchestrations which are on two stereo tracks on my recorder.

I obviously didn't/don't understand the normalization process very well, because I'm learning that probably this is NOT the correct use of normalization.

But all I need to know for the moment is whether this will be okay...because what's done is done, and the kids will be singing to these mixed/mastered/normalized orchestrations for their CD.

Any thoughts other than "you shouldn't have done that"?

Thanks very much.

Julia

 

[Stealthtech]

Julia, if you need info on normalization, start a new thread.
Please refrain from Hijacking.

 

[M.Brane]

Well, you should try to avoid normalizing because it raises the noise floor along with the program material. As long as your tracks are at least -6db on the peaks your into the last bit (with 16bit) and get no benefit from going higher. I also find that recording stuff too hot requires bringing the faders way down for the mix to keep from crowding the 2-buss, and sometimes that can make the mix sound cloudy/veiled. I usually try to track stuff close to the level it will be in the final mix to avoid needless processing.

YMMV.

 

[Julia]

normalization

Thank you, M. Brane...I appreciate the information.

Stealthtech, as for "hijacking", the reason I asked THIS particular question, related to normalization, is because I thought that's what THIS thread is about...it's entitled "Lower Levels...Better Mixes", after all.

In order to FIND the appropriate thread to ask my question in, in fact, I did a search using the term "normalize", and went from there.

I'm no hijacker, but I apologize for whatever I did wrong.

 

[sjoko2]

10 points for that reply

Normalizing within a DAW brings with it a load of problems.
Basically, it functions as a program leveller, which, like Mr. B said, also emphasizes all the artifacts of lower volume recordings.
As you recorded the material at a low level, you will find that you have a substantial noise level as compared to the program level.
Not a lot you can do to that at this stage (unless you have kept the original (pre-normalizing) files.
If your final files are to noisy to use, try and play around with some carefull EQ, try to identify the frequencies which contain most noise and remove some of it. Of cause this is a carefull balance between keeping it sounding good and wrecking the tracks completely.
Next time, record your tracks hot, wbut without clipping, and make your life a lot easier. Also, avoid normalizing if you can.

 

[Teacher]

I'm lost.
Are we talking track/vs main levels, analog, digital(?), monitor playback levels? All of the above?

i was talkin when tracking to hard disk...Sonar 2.1 specifically...and also i make my track PEAK between -6db to -3 db that isn't the avg level

 

[Stealthtech]

Re: normalization

Thank you, M. Brane...I appreciate the information.

Stealthtech, as for "hijacking", the reason I asked THIS particular question, related to normalization, is because I thought that's what THIS thread is about...it's entitled "Lower Levels...Better Mixes", after all.

In order to FIND the appropriate thread to ask my question in, in fact, I did a search using the term "normalize", and went from there.

I'm no hijacker, but I apologize for whatever I did wrong.

No biggie Julia, I just didn't want the subject changed to normalization issues as I dont use it and was not reffering to it {but it did anyway}

 

[soundprizm]

I have troubles with levels also. I don't really mess with the levels while I record. I use a tascam tmd1000 into a mixtreme. I just get the loudest signal without it clipping at the board. The problems I have is when mixing. It seems that all the programs I use, everything seems to be too soft. I have just learned that when the red light is on, it doesn't really mean it's clipping. I can't hear anything clip. I think it just means it's in a level that it MIGHT clip or something like that. When I do this, it seems I get the best level of sound, but there seems to be no difference it the quality of the mix, just that one's louder than the other.

With normalizing the only thing I would use that for is something like a kick. Where the level of the recording is basically the same through out. If I need the wav any louder I just boost the gain, then play with the fader afterwards.

~Donnie

 

[lomky]

Excuse my ignorance, but how does Normalising (SP?) raise the noise floor? Wouldn't it have the same affect as increasing the volume on that channel? If you record so that your peaks are at -6db and on mixing you crank it so that it peaks at 0 isn't that the same as normalising??

 

[soundprizm]

Depends on if you Normalize Peak or RMS lomky. Normalizing is very different from increasing the gain. Normalizing makes the whole wav the same volume. Say if you had a snare wav, and some parts have those soft snare rolls in between the hard hits, you wouldn't want them as loud as those hard hits would you? That's how normalizing and increasing the gain are different. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[TexRoadkill]

Soundprizm your are confusing that with compression a little bit. As far as I know most normalization procedures raise the entire wav volume until something is just below 0db (or whatever setting you gave it). You can use peak or RMS as the reference but it will apply the same amount of gain to the entire track equally.

The problem that many people have with normalization is that you push the wavform to the limit when you may not need to. By raising it to the max then bringing down the volume a bit while mixing you are just screwing with your noise floor. To top it off you might add some compression to the track or mix and just make it worse.

A good rule of thumb in recording is do not mess with anything unless it absolutely needs it. Every 'process' that you do to a track can change it in subtle ways that may not be noticeable until the end. If your final mixes sound slightly phasey, weak, thin with subtle, weird digital artifacts you are messing with it too much.