Low input volume question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Jwb1231970
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I don't have any of the keyboards or other gear mentioned in this thread. I do have a few small mixer and a MOTU M4 interface and a 'shelved' Native Instruments KA6 plus a Mk1 F'rite 8i6 that I never use. All three interfaces have similar low sensitivity fix gain rear inputs.

The problem is the fekking KEYBOARDS! For historic/beancounter reasons they have outputs closer to -20dBV. There are some high end synths that deliver +4dBu balanced feeds but these are rare and expensive.

It would be a simple task to make a two channel pre amp that had say, 0 to 20dB of gain and an output of 22dBu and powered from a 5V source. Everybody has USB and most of us USB 5V mains plugs!

Sadly such a thing does not seem to exist.

Dave.
 
A different MIDI source probably won't change the volume of the playback.

The line inputs on the back of my first generation 6i6 seem to be made for -10 dBV (consumer line level). When I connect a tape deck with RCA connectors, the signals tend to peak around -12 dBFS or so, which is just fine. Electronic instruments seem to use a sort of "instrument" level closer to guitars, which is a fair bit lower than consumer line level.

A mixer would get your levels up, but it might put out +4 dBu, which may be more than the interface wants. But you could just run the fader at -12 dB or so to make it work.

A small mixer would probably only give you two outputs. If you want to use all four of your line inputs, you'll need another solution. One low budget option to turn two line inputs into mic inputs is made by ART.

 
Except there's no phantom power on the line inputs at the back of the F-rite, which I assume are 1/4"-TRS-balanced jacks. (So, 3dB loss from the unbalanced input?)

There's no external, stereo/2-channel preamp that runs on USB power that I could find, though ones with a wall-wart do exist. Decent ones cost more than a small mixer, though. Black Lion is about $400, and there's a Presonus ("BlueTube" not SS?) for about half.

But, I'd probably look at one of the smallest Behringer mixers, like a Xenyx 502, which does have a Level, at least, on the line inputs. If you want *gain* then you need a 2 XLR input version. OR, they have a *mono* mixer, MX400 for $30, if you don't need to keep stereo. Here's what appears to be the same thing in another brand on Amazon - even cheaper.

 
Sorry - no I just meant the sound rather thananything to do with volume.
 
This debate is getting a bit odd? I am doing this! I have a 1202 mixer which takes the S/PDIF output of my FSTV and freeview recorders via a D/A converter which only delivers around -10dBV. That is one of the stereo line inputs on the mixer.
I have also recently been dubbing tapes off my Teac A3440 and that is a 'semi-pro' deck running at neg ten as well.

The mixer gives adequate gain and adds no noise or distortion that I can detect monitoring on a pair of Tannoy 5As.
I really don't see 'waht all the fuss' is about? A $60 mixer SUCH as the 802 is THE most versatile solution to this level problem. Yes! These mixer can deliver +4dBu (which is about what the OP wants!) but running them at lower gain levels causes no issues. My mixer runs with the -20dB LEDs lit most of the time and never hits '0'.

Yes again, most synths seem to deliver 'guitar' level and that, I suppose is because many bands just plugged* them into a guitar amp in the early days? Plus that is about all you could get from the internal 5V TTL supply. As I said, more expensive models have higher outputs and thus higher internal supply rails.

*In my teens we had a Shaftsbury 50W combo with 4 input jacks. Lead guitar, rhythm guitar and two mics went in that! (I built my own bass rig).

Dave.
 
well, after all of this and learning more from all of you, I just broke down and ordered a Focusrite with the 8 preamp mic/line inputs. Though more costly solution, it will make it easier for my set up: I will use one for electric, one for bass, 4 for drum set, one for vocal, one for piano, and one for Hammond Organ. I do love these Focusrite products.
 
ecc83 said:
This debate is getting a bit odd? I am doing this! I have a 1202 mixer which takes the S/PDIF output of my FSTV and freeview recorders via a D/A converter which only delivers around -10dBV. That is one of the stereo line inputs on the mixer.
I have also recently been dubbing tapes off my Teac A3440 and that is a 'semi-pro' deck running at neg ten as well.

The mixer gives adequate gain and adds no noise or distortion that I can detect monitoring on a pair of Tannoy 5As.
I really don't see 'waht all the fuss' is about? A $60 mixer SUCH as the 802 is THE most versatile solution to this level problem. Yes! These mixer can deliver +4dBu (which is about what the OP wants!) but running them at lower gain levels causes no issues. My mixer runs with the -20dB LEDs lit most of the time and never hits '0'.

Yes again, most synths seem to deliver 'guitar' level and that, I suppose is because many bands just plugged* them into a guitar amp in the early days? Plus that is about all you could get from the internal 5V TTL supply. As I said, more expensive models have higher outputs and thus higher internal supply rails.

*In my teens we had a Shaftsbury 50W combo with 4 input jacks. Lead guitar, rhythm guitar and two mics went in that! (I built my own bass rig).

Dave.
Click to expand...
Don't get too agitated Dave. I agree with your diagnosis.
 
It's no debate. The mixer is a perfectly good solution. But if he wants to use all four line inputs, he's going to need more than a small mixer.
 
bouldersoundguy said:
It's no debate. The mixer is a perfectly good solution. But if he wants to use all four line inputs, he's going to need more than a small mixer.
Click to expand...
Well possibly but the advantage of the mixer is that you can have two 'stereo' kbs connected and select the one you want, Of course the whole thing resolves to two channels but that is how it is monitored and finally presented anyway.

BTW if the AI has a 'loop through' function as does my M4 you can record a USB input even though the main AI is running ASIO drivers. On the M4 that would be inputs 5/6.

Dave.
 
Jwb1231970 said:
well, after all of this and learning more from all of you, I just broke down and ordered a Focusrite with the 8 preamp mic/line inputs. Though more costly solution, it will make it easier for my set up: I will use one for electric, one for bass, 4 for drum set, one for vocal, one for piano, and one for Hammond Organ. I do love these Focusrite products.
Click to expand...
If you got the 18i20 (or Clarett equivalent), you have to use the INST inputs on the front for your electric and bass, as LINE input is not well matched for mag pickup output. And, I count *9* inputs in your list, but maybe you don't expect to have everything plugged in at the same time, as you can't play both guitar and bass or piano and organ at the same time. Well, most folks can't... (Anyway, good choice. I had Sapphire 26 Pro for several years, which was the precursor to the 8i8, I suppose, and I really liked it. Just the Firewire tech got it left behind, and I had to buy in mid-pandemic and F'rite products were simply not available at that time.)
 
rob aylestone said:
Just seems a lot of effort to me - buy a mixer just to get half a line level into a full line level product - the one thing that is for certain is that if you have almost any DAW, even a modest or free (spitfire labs) piano VSTi will be better than the clavinova line output. My experience of these and Roland's that are similar is that their tone is biased to the speakers in them - connect them to other gear and it sounds less good. They've been around for a long time now and have hardly changed in their sound.
Click to expand...
Interesting that you mention the Spitfire piano. I saw others raving about their new concert grand piano, so downloaded it, and tried it side by side with the piano sound I put together on my Casio workstation using 2 of the included piano sounds (you can balance them how you like on the Casio) and I preferred my sound to the Spitfire. One thing about the stereo outputs on keyboards with built-in speakers - they can sometimes sound (in a good stereo monitoring position) that you have your head above the soundboard of the piano - bass notes to the left, treble to the right, which does not sound realistic in a mix with other instruments, so I have to reduce the 'width' of the stereo track (in Reaper).
 
keith.rogers said:
If you got the 18i20 (or Clarett equivalent), you have to use the INST inputs on the front for your electric and bass, as LINE input is not well matched for mag pickup output. And, I count *9* inputs in your list, but maybe you don't expect to have everything plugged in at the same time, as you can't play both guitar and bass or piano and organ at the same time. Well, most folks can't... (Anyway, good choice. I had Sapphire 26 Pro for several years, which was the precursor to the 8i8, I suppose, and I really liked it. Just the Firewire tech got it left behind, and I had to buy in mid-pandemic and F'rite products were simply not available at that time.)
Click to expand...
Guitar and Bass in 1 and 2, piano in 3, organ in 4, then 4 mics (mostly 3 on the drumset and 1 vocal mic). I like to have everything plugged in all the time so I never have to deal with plugging and unplugging. If anything I will sometimes have to move my mics but that's infrequent.
 
My clav 150 has a slider for song/keyboard. Make sure it’s set right then if your using the audio out from the clav will turning up the volume on it resolve the issue.
Midi is a whole nother game.
 
Your clavinova should have two aux outputs. Make sure you're using both of them and two inputs on the focusrite.
Pan 1+2 left and right in your recording software if they aren't already.

If what you've recorded seems too quiet (compared to what?), use some plugin to boost the gain.
 
Jwb1231970 said:
Guitar and Bass in 1 and 2, piano in 3, organ in 4, then 4 mics (mostly 3 on the drumset and 1 vocal mic). I like to have everything plugged in all the time so I never have to deal with plugging and unplugging. If anything I will sometimes have to move my mics but that's infrequent.
Click to expand...
Ah, ok, I'd read the mic use and came up with 5.

For future reference (for anyone else), if your existing interface has ADAT input, you can expand your "rack" quite a bit, and affordably, with something like the Behringer ADA8200 (8 mic pres), or even Behringer's DI800v2, active DI (with switchable) +20dB gain. (Before I switched to using field recorders, I used the ADA8200 to expand my 4-mic Saffire. It worked great.)
 
keith.rogers said:
Ah, ok, I'd read the mic use and came up with 5.

For future reference (for anyone else), if your existing interface has ADAT input, you can expand your "rack" quite a bit, and affordably, with something like the Behringer ADA8200 (8 mic pres), or even Behringer's DI800v2, active DI (with switchable) +20dB gain. (Before I switched to using field recorders, I used the ADA8200 to expand my 4-mic Saffire. It worked great.)
Click to expand...
Yes, useful IF you have ADAT but also, that does not give you zero latency, computer free monitoring. And, does not seem to matter in the OP's case but the ADA is around 3 times the price of the mixer.

There are many and various ways to skin this particular moggy but a small mixer is about the cheapest and most versatile.

Dave.
 
I shall modify my position slightly? Some interfaces, my M4 for example, have the capability to work 'stand alone' meaning that their inputs and outputs continue to pass signals even when not connected to a computer*. They do however of course need power. Via USB C as does my M4 or from a wall rat. In that case you could leave all the inputs plugged up and run latency and computer free.

*This Lenovo leaves the USB 2.0 port powered up with the laptop shut down but charging. This means the M4 can run the monitors etc in that 'off' state. Such a USB power situation can be setup on most computers in "Power Modes".

Dave.
 
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