Loudness War Project

notsocoolguy

New member
Hey,

Pretty much, I'm doing a project for school and need professional peoples opinions on the loudness war! Especially mastering engineers.
I've read pretty much every article available, and have done plenty of hands on testing myself into the matter, but what I need now is purely opinions from professionals all round the world!

So what I'd like from you, is to fill out the form, purely on opinion and personal experience, and send it back to me! Either, just post a reply, or email me notsocoolguy@gmail.com

Name And Location:

Experience:

Then answers to the following questions:

What is the loudness war?

Why do people want their music louder than others?

What is your personal opinion on the matter?

And is there any 'cure' to this?

Thanks so much!
 
I'll forgive your cross-posting....

Blame the industry for the loudness wars. Any audio engineer worth his salt would rather not get involved. And there is a ton of material out there on this already. Google is your friend.
 
I'll forgive your cross-posting....

Blame the industry for the loudness wars. Any audio engineer worth his salt would rather not get involved. And there is a ton of material out there on this already. Google is your friend.


Ah I forgot to add this in the origional post... I have read every article out there already! Talked to a bunch of engineers about it, so I'm here looking purely for PERSONAL OPINIONS!!

I know what it is, and how it came about, but I want to know what YOU think!
 
Ah I forgot to add this in the origional post... I have read every article out there already! Talked to a bunch of engineers about it, so I'm here looking purely for PERSONAL OPINIONS!!

I know what it is, and how it came about, but I want to know what YOU think!

Fair enough.

I think it's been a huge detriment to anyone that cares enough to learn the craft. The same goes for the "computer revolution." I came from the analog world, and while I appreciate what the digital realm has to offer, I feel that much is being lost to the ease at which Joe Schmo can "produce" his own CD. The loudness issue is just a part of it.
 
Fair enough.

I think it's been a huge detriment to anyone that cares enough to learn the craft. The same goes for the "computer revolution." I came from the analog world, and while I appreciate what the digital realm has to offer, I feel that much is being lost to the ease at which Joe Schmo can "produce" his own CD. The loudness issue is just a part of it.

Ok thanks for that! Is it alright if I may quote a bit of your reply in my research? Could you supply me with a name? And maybe a little bit of background?

Sorry about this, I just need to do it by the book! :P
You have every right to refuse though of course!!
 
I don't reply to mass requests for information to generic e-mail accounts like gmail and yahoo, so if you don't mind, I'll put mine here:

Name And Location:
Glen Stephan
Chicago, IL

Experience:
29 years as an audio/video/computer engineer

What is the loudness war?
The slang name for a misguided belief that one needs to make the average (RMS) signal level of their recordings as loud as possible in order for it to be able to actually compete in the market; i.e. that you got to be as loud as or louder than the next guy if you want his listeners.

Why do people want their music louder than others?
Because they believe the central false premise behind the Loudness Wars.

What is your personal opinion on the matter?
I believe the Loudness Wars are an ugly fad. They are to the last fifteen years of music what the rainbow-colored polyester leisure suit and big hair was to 1970s fashion. In another 20-30 years our children and grand children will look back on this era of music production, shake their heads and disbelief and mutter, "What were they thinking?"

And is there any 'cure' to this?
There are two sides to the "cure", I believe: First is that this is very much like a fashion trend in an artist-based industry, with the musicians and performers being the artists. The average quality professional artist will eventually get tired of the fatiguing sound of The Loudness Wars and bored with everything sounding the same, and will long to break out with a new sound or style all their own. Put simply, it will fall out of fashion and be replaced by the "Next Big Idea" in audio production fashion as part of the natural cycle of things. I believe we are already starting to see this happen with many of the top producers in hip-hop (which, like it or not, is the top influential music genre du jour), who are not happy with just a beat and a rap anymore and starting to re-discover the wonders of complex harmonies, arrangements and textures that just don't work unless there are dynamics in the volume as well.

But for the home recording and indie market by it's very nature is often behind the curve on such things. While it may have it's own creative artists, the vast majority of amateurs or budding pros want to copy the established sound of the pros, and not the leading edge of the trends. It just takes time for that to trickle down. The belief in the loudness wars is just so incredibly strong in the home recording arena right now that it will take a while to crack. What is needed is for the "pros" who service this market; the experienced producers and engineers for hire to the indie community, to start doing our entire job.

Right now we are doing half of it. 99% of us dislike and do not believe in the Loudness Wars, yet we simply remain quiet about it when our newbie clients ask for it, under the guise of "the customer is always right". What we forget is that the reason most of them are coming to us is because they want the benefit of our experience and usually will want to at least hear what advice we have, whether they ultimately decide to follow it or not. We've got to stop giving ourselves ulcers by just saying, "Yes, boss; I'm shaking the tree, boss" every time they ask for maximum loudness in their project, and instead say, "Look, I'll be happy to do that if that is an informed decision on your part, but did you realize that is not always the best way to go? I'll be glad to discuss the options and the 'whys' with you based upon my experience and my observation of the change in direction happening on the pro level. If after that you still wish to pursue the loudness thing, fine, I'll be behind you 100%.. But I'd be doing you a disservice if I just took your money and didn't give you the benefit of if an informed decision for that price."

G.
 
I'm not a professional but you can have my opinion in the form of something I posted ages ago if you like, for what it's worth.

me said:
Ever since I was little I have had this fixation on the guitar, and how it sounds, so I listened to music intently. I started hearing all the other sounds, and became fixated on them too. There were times when I would tell people in the room to "shut the hell up and listen to this". People talking when I'm listening to good music annoys the crap out of me. Its not background music to me. It more like reading a book. I want to concentrate....

Dynamics have always been something that fascinated me. A classical piece that would meander along quietly, and then suddenly jolt you with a loud burst. I liked Nirvana a lot in my early teens because of their use of dynamics. To have something going quietly and suddenly burst out with rage, like the calm before the storm. I'm sure had their stuff ran through a brickwall to some degree. But it was more tolerable when they weren't completely killing the tune.

Its only been in the last few years I have noticed the way you'd have, say, a heavily distorted powerful guitar riff with the drums booming away, and suddenly it would go into the quiet calm bit. But it was like "wait, everything is still the same volume. It doesn't make any sense". It just sounded fucked up to me. Like, I can deal with the heavy bits being pummelled into my brain. Thats what they are for. But the "quiet" bits, the change in timbre I guess. They aren't meant to do that. Its sposed to be, like....exhaling, I guess, after an intense moment. A release. It just doesn't seem to happen anymore.

I don't see the point in trying to make and record all these sounds if you are just going to mush them up afterwards. I got pissed off the other day because I was listening to a CD, and I noticed forthe first time how when the tune kicked in, it almost felt like my speakers were fucked. I actually checked my whole setup to make sure something wasn't turned up stupidly loud somewhere. I'm going to notice that every time I listen to it now. I just don't see the point in it. If everything was at a lower perceptive volume, then people wouldn't need to do it.
 
I'm not a professional but you can have my opinion in the form of something I posted ages ago if you like, for what it's worth.
You, sir, are a true engineer and a poet. You have both the ears and the brain to interpret them.

If I had a sister, I'd let you go out with her. :D

G.

Of course if she looked anything like me, I wouldn't be doing you any favors...
 
I think the loudness wars are great.

Things sound better when they're loud. Legionserial ... if you can't hear the music loud enough, then maybe it could use some more compression.

If your mix isn't compressed and limited 'till it's flat like a pancake ... then it ain't done yet.

:D
 
I'm not nearly a professional, but I'll post my answers anyway (because it's there!)

Name And Location: Stephen, San Antonio, TX

Experience: 8 years home recording

Then answers to the following questions:

What is the loudness war? There is a tendency perceive louder music as better music. In order to produce "better" music, engineers attempt to mix their songs so that the overall levels are all louder. The Holy Grail of the loudness war would be a mix that is just short of clipping across all the major EQ spectrums for the entire song.

Why do people want their music louder than others? At this point, it's industry standard. If the consumer has to turn up your song in order to hear it relative to his/her other music, it will be viewed as a poor-quality or unprofessional recording.

What is your personal opinion on the matter? As a consumer, I like that most of my songs are about the same volume so I don't have to be constantly adjusting levels. When recording, I sometimes think it might be easier if I wasn't always trying to keep my levels as loud as possible. I also somewhat mourn the loss of dynamics.

And is there any 'cure' to this? If the producers working on top 40 songs start making quieter mixes, it will alleviate the issue. People en masse would need to buy these quieter mixes. Then the people who make decisions would realize that they can make quiet mixes and still make money.

Good luck with the project.

Edit: Wow. I posted before going through and reading Glen and Legionairre's posts. They win this thread.
 
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if you can't hear the music loud enough, then maybe it could use some more compression.

I know you're only kidding but I'm amazed by the fact that some people actually beleive this. I mean, granted the public are dumb, but I'm pretty sure they know how to use their volume control. From my point of view I feel like "I'll decide how loud the music I'm listening to is going to be, not the damn record label".

Still, it's all a testament to how good quality recordings are almost superfluous these days. Which is why we have this loathsome mp3 shit now. Yeah, I listen to mp3's, but I ain't going to pay money for that quality. I'll buy the CD and rip it to a better quality mp3 myself thankyouverymuch.

Seriously, I don't know why they bother paying a fortune to someone to do a damn good tracking and mixing job if they are going to insist that the mastering engineer ruins the whole thing, and then sell it as crappy bitrate mp3's. And I don't care what anyone says, I can hear the difference unless the bitrate is either variable or very very high.

Sorry, I'm digressing a bit.
 
Actually something else I've noticed about the volume wars that pisses me off is how it has contributed to things like mp3 players and discmans. I don't think they need to make them as loud anymore because the music being made these days is already super-loud.

My last mp3 player was not capable of reaching the volumes neccessary to make older recordings satisfactorily audible. For example, listening to an old Megadeth album from the mid 80's or so, I'd have the player on full blast and would actually have to boost it with the EQ to make it audible on a train. And even then I could have done with having it a little louder. Of course, I have the thing on shuffle, and the next tune is from an album post 2005, comes on before I have the chance to adjust my volume, and inevitably, I nearly end up blowing my fucking ears into my skull. Especially with what they do to metal these days.

Obviously I don't want them to make the tunes louder, I want them to make all the tunes quieter, so they will make things like mp3 players louder.

That said, I don't entirely beleive in the idea of a standardisation similar to what they have in the movies. I think that would somewhat suffocate the art. This is something artists and labels are going to have to do off their own backs.
 
A Win-Win-Win-Win Solution to The Loudness Wars

Actually something else I've noticed about the volume wars that pisses me off is how it has contributed to things like mp3 players and discmans. I don't think they need to make them as loud anymore because the music being made these days is already super-loud.

My last mp3 player was not capable of reaching the volumes neccessary to make older recordings satisfactorily audible. For example, listening to an old Megadeth album from the mid 80's or so, I'd have the player on full blast and would actually have to boost it with the EQ to make it audible on a train. And even then I could have done with having it a little louder. Of course, I have the thing on shuffle, and the next tune is from an album post 2005, comes on before I have the chance to adjust my volume, and inevitably, I nearly end up blowing my fucking ears into my skull. Especially with what they do to metal these days.

Obviously I don't want them to make the tunes louder, I want them to make all the tunes quieter, so they will make things like mp3 players louder.

That said, I don't entirely beleive in the idea of a standardisation similar to what they have in the movies. I think that would somewhat suffocate the art. This is something artists and labels are going to have to do off their own backs.
I put a potential solution to all this on the table a year or two ago. Unfortunately the table was back in the corner by the kitchen in a restaruant not often frequented by Those Who Matter in this issue ;):

It makes total sense to me for both sides of The Wars to agree not on a content standard, but on a petition to the playback hardware manufacturers to bring back a modern version of the old AGC (Automatic Gain Control) circuit in the playback devices. These used to be fairly common on portable AM/FM radios and tape players 30-40 years ago.

On a basic level, AGC was little more than a hard limiter, sometimes with gain boost, sometimes not, depending upon the circuit design. IOW, it performed on the playback end what producers and engineers are now doing on the production end with the Volume Wars.

Granted, the old AGC circuits were cheap, low quality curcuits, but with today's digital technology they could pretty easily be made just as cheap or cheaper, but quite higher in quality.

The modern AGC would be switchable On/Off by the user (as many of them were back then too), and the better quality ones might even include a simple gain control knob. The idea is that the producers would be free to make the music as they see fit, and they can give the listener the choice of either listening to the full dynamics (AGC off) or everything equally loud (AGC on).

The new AGC could even include an "Auto/Manual" switch setting. "Manual" means that the user/listener can manually decide whether the AGC is on or off at any given time as described above. When it is switched to "Auto", however, the AGC circuit would read a single info bit embedded in the P Code of the disc or track that the mastering engineer could encode to automatically instruct the circuit to turn on or off based upon the desire/recommendation of the label/producer/artist.

Everybody would win IMHO under this scheme: the listener would win in that they could listen to what they want how they want, the dynamics advocates would still be able to produce their music The Way God Intended It, the loudness advocates would be able to still offer bricks on playback to still compete on the Loudness field if they wish, and the manufacturers wold have another gadget they could use to sell new gear and to compete with (our AGC is better than your AGC).

G.
 
Great idea.

BRING BACK THE "LOUDNESS" BUTTON ! !

How cool. And retro.

.
The "Loudness" button was something entirely different; it ran the signal through an equalization curve meant to somewhat counteract the Fletcher-Munson response curve of the human ear at lower playback volume, and (I think?) can still be found on many home stereo systems.

But considering that we live in an age where the end user wants complete control over everything including the look of the "skin" of their software and hardware, giving them the brick wall against which they can smash (or not) their playlists to their heart's desire seems like a shoe in to me. And for those that are not interested in the extra knobs, they can just let the automatic setting take over and let the record lebals decide for them.

G.
 
Another great idea that nobody's marketed! My mate's brother is full of ideas like that but he's never manufactured any of them...
 
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