Loudness War Project

notsocoolguy

New member
Hey,

Pretty much, I'm doing a project for school and need professional peoples opinions on the loudness war! Especially mastering engineers.
I've read pretty much every article available, and have done plenty of hands on testing myself into the matter, but what I need now is purely opinions from professionals all round the world!

So what I'd like from you, is to fill out the form, purely on opinion and personal experience, and send it back to me! Either, just post a reply, or email me notsocoolguy@gmail.com

Name And Location:

Experience:

Then answers to the following questions:

What is the loudness war?

Why do people want their music louder than others?

What is your personal opinion on the matter?

And is there any 'cure' to this?

Thanks so much!
 
John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering - Chicago area, IL.

25 years audio engineering -- Around 13 years mastering.

The Loudness War: Is a pissing contest between labels and artists that the public has nothing to do with and wants nothing to do with. But many of them don't know any better.

People want their music louder than others because: They do. They want to be more impressive than the last guy and they evidently don't think very highly of the listeners - Assuming that if something is a whisker louder, they're going to think it's "pro" sounding or better sounding than the last song they listened to.

My personal opinion: The "loudness war" is destroying the current generation of music. And turning the mastering trade, which is something I sort of care about at the core, into "where you get it loud" - which is the impression of much of the "newbie" ranks of audio engineers.

Any cure to this? Yes, as a matter of fact... I was asked a dozen or so years ago (when the War was much less violent than it is today) whether a "volume standard" should be in place - much like the motion picture industry (notice how good so many soundtracks sound?). Of course, I said "no" and yada, yada. But that was when "loud" was -15, -14dBRMS and the ridiculously loud stuff was at maybe -12. Now, -12dBRMS is "quiet" by most people's (again, bands and labels, representatives, etc.) opinion.

I think a more "standard" level would be a wonderful idea. For most rock & pop, I think -15dBRMS would be a fine place to be. It seems to be just short of where dynamics can be clean, clear & punchy, without getting out of control and distorted. To put it another way, I have yet to hear a project at -12dBRMS that didn't sound considerably and obviously better at -15dBRMS.

But if there was a "standard" of -15 in place and someone still wanted a crest of 10dB, it would be as easy as smashing the crap out of it (to -10RMS) and then backing it down to -15.

I'm sure they'd all be in a big rush to do that... :rolleyes:
 
John Scrip - MASSIVE Mastering - Chicago area, IL.

25 years audio engineering -- Around 13 years mastering.

The Loudness War: Is a pissing contest between labels and artists that the public has nothing to do with and wants nothing to do with. But many of them don't know any better.

People want their music louder than others because: They do. They want to be more impressive than the last guy and they evidently don't think very highly of the listeners - Assuming that if something is a whisker louder, they're going to think it's "pro" sounding or better sounding than the last song they listened to.

My personal opinion: The "loudness war" is destroying the current generation of music. And turning the mastering trade, which is something I sort of care about at the core, into "where you get it loud" - which is the impression of much of the "newbie" ranks of audio engineers.

Any cure to this? Yes, as a matter of fact... I was asked a dozen or so years ago (when the War was much less violent than it is today) whether a "volume standard" should be in place - much like the motion picture industry (notice how good so many soundtracks sound?). Of course, I said "no" and yada, yada. But that was when "loud" was -15, -14dBRMS and the ridiculously loud stuff was at maybe -12. Now, -12dBRMS is "quiet" by most people's (again, bands and labels, representatives, etc.) opinion.

I think a more "standard" level would be a wonderful idea. For most rock & pop, I think -15dBRMS would be a fine place to be. It seems to be just short of where dynamics can be clean, clear & punchy, without getting out of control and distorted. To put it another way, I have yet to hear a project at -12dBRMS that didn't sound considerably and obviously better at -15dBRMS.

But if there was a "standard" of -15 in place and someone still wanted a crest of 10dB, it would be as easy as smashing the crap out of it (to -10RMS) and then backing it down to -15.

I'm sure they'd all be in a big rush to do that... :rolleyes:

dunno if you might want to post this in the other identical thread in the recording techniques board. I think this one is defunct now. :p
 
Name And Location: Tom Volpicelli - The Mastering House Inc.

Experience: Audio Engineering since the late 70's, Mastering 15 years

What is the loudness war?

An attempt to be competitive with other artists through the use of extreme limiting and compression. There are also other factors such as brightness and extreme bottom end that people use to be competitive, but those would be the EQ wars.

The loudness wars have existed since the 60's with people trying to make their records louder than others particularly on a jukebox. It was the limitations of vinyl that prevented things from getting where they are today since a label wouldn't want their records to skip and have a large number of returns at the store. With the advent of digital limiting and CDs this limitation was removed and things have gotten hopefully as far as they will.

Why do people want their music louder than others?

There is the misconception that their music will be more "radio ready". Also that their music will jump out more than others. This is especially true on compilation CDs.

What is your personal opinion on the matter?

Heavily limited albums get fatiguing to listen to since the ear is in "auto compress mode". It's similar to trying to clench a fist for an extended period of time, sooner or later you need a rest. It's like listening to a radio commercial for an extended period of time.

There are some cases where extreme limiting is part of a "sound", Metal, Rap, and certain types of Rock are certainly cases. In Country, Jazz, Classical, Blues, and other dynamic genres of music it feels totally inappropriate.

In addition to the loudness wars I'm also concerned with the degradation of music distribution. MP3s and other lossy codecs should not be used as the final media for distribution but only as a convenience. With all of the technology available it amazes me that an Ipod or MP3 player with earbuds is the standard that most people use for listening to music.

And is there any 'cure' to this?

Until people stop purchasing music for the specific reason of being overcompressed/limited likely no.
 
I am an amateur composing making music mixing and mastering now for 23 years. I once wrote this letter to Bob Katz. Never had an answer on it, I send it about 5 times.

Date: 30 augustus 2006

To: Bob Katz

Sender:
Nononsense

The way you are writing a book is not a good thing, it is too complicated for most people.
You are probably thinking that you never had any complaints. But a whole lot of people
don't dare to complain, especially Americans, that's why there are so many homeless and poor
in your country.

I assume that a lot of your readers are professionals but also hobbyists like me, hobbyist have
the right to know things and have a nice hobby without any thinking to do, so they can enjoy there
freetime and concentrate on the music. You are not providing the information in the right way.

I have more than once been confronted with people like you. What do I think about you?
You are a person that links 'self value' to behaviour of 'doing complicated'.
So I think you are a person with an inferiority complex that tries to have self-esteem
by doing complicated. You like persons to come to you so they can ask questions that you
already have answered for a thousand times, you like the attention. You don't see the purpose
anymore of writing a book or answering the questions you only feel the appreciation, you
think you are important. So the purpose of solving problems is no longer the issue, it is the
attention the appreciation that you get that fills your fantasylife.

I also think that it has to do a lot with 'making money'. You proudly send people to the links
where people can buy your book, while the information isn't there, at least not in a straightforward
way. You also send people to the meters that are sold by your website. And of course you send
people to the many articles so that they stay on your website so they will buy your k-system.

A lot of beginners, hobbyists but also professionals are using compressors and limiters too
much (for my opinion I am not using it too much). That also has a lot to do with the low
opinion they have of themselves. I think Bob Katz is one of the persons responsible for that.
Bob Katz should give more psychological information about the people in the studio's, they
have a low opinion of themselves so they try to filter that out by raising the volume, so they
can stand up against the big studio's. But Bob Katz himself has a low opinion of himself and
needs attention because he links 'self value' to behaviour of 'doing complicated'.

What is the result of the inferiority complex of Bob Katz? The result is as follows.

Step 1
People like Bob Katz with an inferiority complex are making books and manuals for hobbyists
and professionals over 'how loud to record and playback and treat compressor/limiters in studio's'.
But the information is described difficult in a technical way and it is very hard to filter out the
information, because the purpose of the book is not providing information but making money
and feeling themselves important as a writer. The books and manuals are written by a person
with an inferiority complex that tries to have some self-esteem by doing complicated.

Step 2
Hobbyists and professionals have the need for information on how hard to record and playback
and how to use compressor/limiters. They collect all kind of information like books from Bob Katz.
Also they read information on the internet and magazines which is highly influenced by people like
Bob Katz.

Step 3
The books like from Bob Katz are too complicated and the information on the internet is too
confusing because only a few people are really understanding all of this. A whole lot of blah-blah
and only little information, so they cannot filter the information properly.

Step 4
They don't have the proper information and that feeds their insecurity and so the inferiority
complex is even more growing.

Step 5
They are really desperate and keep looking for ways to pump up the volume even more
because the competition is going harder every year. So they put the volume louder on the
tv-commercials, they put the volume louder in announcements on tv and radio and they put
the volume louder on the Top 40 noise. And the amateurs are copying this kind of behavior.


Next time you have the tv on in the background and you are irritated by a freaking loud commercial
and want to put it softer right away, you must think of the following......

You YOURSELF are responsible for the explosions on your tv!
YOU are responsible for the destruction of today's music!
YOU have an inferiority complex that keeps you giving information in a deliberate complicated
way so that nobody has straightforward information on how to treat the volumes.
YOU are part of that movement that makes money instead of giving information in a pure and simple way.
Bob Katz is one of the persons responsible for the loudness wars!


Advise
Make a new book that is much simpler, make the information freeware.

Example of the construction of the new book. (the new way of communicating)

Chapter 5: Recording levels
The best analog signal level is: +4 dBu but this has to be taken as average.
What is average.....short explanation.....

A signal begins with distorting at ...level...
A signal begins with noise problems at ...level...
The best signal levels you will find between ...level...

There is an alignment of analog with 24 bit soundcards here you see the table:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~pj090367/pdf/db_levels.pdf

The best digital signal level is: ......short explanation..........
The best signal level out of a 24 bit soundcard before getting analog is....short explanation....


It is all that simple, most people don't have to know all the arithmetic behind it.








With kind regards,
Nononsense
 
Now lets look at it from a amplifier stand point. Home stereo systems and other audio playback devices have sweet spots in their amps. And speakers have certain watt levels they like. Do you think older equipment in particular would be affected by the loudness war. Say a pre-sound war song on a vintage system sounds great at 50 watts rms (speaker and amp sweet spot)and is 90db in loudness. A new "sound war" tune at 90db on the same sytem is only pushing the amp at 25 watts, but the speakers and amp are not in their sweet spot, so it sounds like crap. Does that make sense ? Do engineers design systems around todays audio levels ? Maybe Im thinking too much.
 
Do engineers design systems around todays audio levels ?

I beleive to some extent that they do. In the doppelganger of this thread in the recording techniques forum, I explained how my last mp3 player wouldn't go up loud enough to make older music satisfactorily audible. Full blast, with every band of the EQ boosted, and I couldn't hear shit over the sound of the train. Then a recent tune comes on before I have the chance to turn it down again, and my ear drums nearly swap places... Kinda scuppered my plans to, on the way to work, listen to the mixes I'd been working on the night before.
 
Generally they want you to pay attention to their song, so making it louder than the rest of the songs you compete against, and your song sticks out.
 
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