LOUD guitars and SM 57/58

L

Littletrigger

New member
I have tried searching over and over again for this subject, because its such a newbie its silly, but i can't find one anywhere. Sorry.

I know the latter is a live vocal mic, so we will get that out of the way.

If I were to close mic a 70's Hiwatt Dr103 at really high (nearly railed) volumes (no attenuation), would I damage the mic if it was an SM57/58 I was recording with? (Are there ways of reducing the impact on the diaphragm?)

For those who dont know the amp, Its quite a bit louder than any other amp ive played/owned (Marshall superlead/bass 100's, rectumfryers, mode 4......) Infact it would be the loudest amp ive heard if i didnt own a 200 watt version. (bass/clean guitar amp, im not one of these derranged Volume idiots :D )

This question also goes for recording flat out marshall superleads 50/100's as well since im going to do that as well. Ive recorded small guitar amps many a time, but never my beasts, and quite frankly I want some Hiwatt tone not just Vox/fender, and never dirty preamp/pedal distortion :D I will never be good enough an engineer to make that crap sound good!

Many thanks.

James
 
Shouldn't be a problem ... depends how you're mic'ing as well because one you start getting further of axis there is less air slamming straight into the diaphragm (hence how ribbons can be used safely). Apparently the Sennheiser MD421 was tested for maximum SPL with WWII tank fire ... and you ear drums would meet in the centre of your head before the mic start crapping out. :)
 
I just have to ask why do you need your amp turned that loud? I can relate to using power to get certain tones/sustain/feedback/overdrive but I have found that less powerfull amps cranked up do the same thing without risking damage to your gear or your ears.
 
its a master volume amp, but essentially it acts like a non master. To cut it short, The sound i want is that of the amp being really pushed, Hiwatts are notoriously difficult to get to do this without insane volumes, Tones like VH, Townshend, Clapton (in cream) came from running flat out amps. Im not running completly flat out, but it will still be equally as loud, if not louder than your average 100watt plexi on its knees.

I know about the world of preamp drive, and i own a few cool boxes, such as the Fulltone FD2, and Chandler Tube driver. I leave these to the stage where soundmen would shoot me if I tried any other method. (with exceptions where they do get used on record), On a record where i can get away with getting the "best tone" (the tone i want from the guitar) I let the amp do the work from the back end. I have really really sensitve/picky ears, and get all anal about guitar/bass/drum sound. It pisses most of my band off (spending 4 hours over mic placement on one sodding instrument, being the only person i know that still tries to get a bass guitar sound without D.I etc...) , but this isnt a recording for my band, Its my own E.p which is way off kilter to what my band would play , and if i think is any good I will use it.

I just dont want to march into the live room and start blowing things up, I dont have the money to start tossing sm57/58's in the bin :D not with this new motherboard and the rest of my expenses. I hate breaking gear as well, it really pains me!

Thanks for the reassurance though guys/gals?
 
Oh i do use a LOT less powerful amps, but My main sound comes from this Hiwatt, which i Love tooo much, I have an attenuator, but i can hear its colouration to the sound in a mix, and i start scratching the walls tearing my hair out, when i hear stuff like that! :cool:
 
F_cksia said:
And if so, just turn the amp down.. :confused:
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The only possible way to get the sound of a cranked Hiwatt is to crank a Hiwatt, unfortunately. Turning it down makes it sound different.
 
An average very loud concert is running around 120db.

Most mics like the 57 will handle 140 without any problem. A lot of condensors will take 140 without distorting.

You would have a hard time getting your amp to push 120. Maybe MAYBE if you were a half inch from the speaker, maybe..... but that wont even make the mic breathe hard. You cant even scream into it loud enough to distort the diaphragm, which is what you have to do to damage it with SPL.

If you do hear distortion, it is probably somewhere else in your signal chain.
 
I know where your coming from 100%. I love a good tube amp pushed to its limits. I won't even look at stomp boxes or transistor amps.....and i'm a drummer.:p
 
Scholtz PowerSoak? I've seen it used on an Ampeg SVT with awesome results (Doug Pinnick)...

Eric
 
Attenuation

Ive got an attenuator, a realy really god one infact. A Weber Mass, modified by my guitar tech, who is basicly a god around here, used to be a tech for everyone! Setup Chandlers music store in Kew etc...

Anyway, its amazingly great tool, wouldnt go anywhere without it for live situations. Use it in the studio on a Hiwatt? No! First off large attenuation will mean the thing will die. Small attenuation isnt really worth it in the studio as its till so fricking loud, I can hear it in the mix like a dirty great big compressor! (its still a truly great piece of kit though)/(hiwatts are so so touch resposive its silly) Naturally I will probably apply compression later. But thats when its not changing how my amp plays/feels. As i said im so touchy about tracking, and a lot more so when im not paying for studio time.

Thanks for the suggestions though guys, its cool that im on a forum full of people that know their stuff, and give a damn about one another. Ive had nothing but negetivity from people since ariving back in the UK after Christmas, and its cool that there still is some good will out there somewhere :D
 
Heh heh, I had a HiWatt Custom 100 with 2 4x12 cabs back in the late '70s...Was never in a situation where I could really crank it up, but I thought it beat the shit out of a SVT...Wish I had it back now....

Good luck with all that volume... :o

Eric
 
I used to be a die-hard Hiwatt guy...but now I've found that the best recorded "cranked Hiwatt" tone is a Dr.Z KT-45 at half volume. :p

"Live at Leeds" did the job on so many of us, didn't it?
 
Littletrigger said:
First off large attenuation will mean the thing will die.
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What do you mean by this?

Aside from how your speakers might break up in sound, and saturating your room with sound, the soak should do just fine.
 
too loud for attenuator

No, the thing will put too much power for the attenuator to handle. I already have smoked a thd hotplate 16 ohm and they are rated at 180 watts max, The weber has no "official" rating, but one of their sales reps was adamant that i did not use a lot of attenuation on a Hiwatt dr103 or above.

Furthermore, appart from the attenuation becoming compressed, and going on to "fizzy" the more its applied, the simple fact is that speakers are not going to get pushed as they should.

I dont record with big amps ever (AC 30 being the loudest). But in this case I will be, and it wont just be loud, but silly loud. (hey it could still sound like trash yet! :eek: :D )

The end of the story was really, how far can I take an sm57/58 before i damage them? and I now know. :D
 
corso said:
I used to be a die-hard Hiwatt guy...but now I've found that the best recorded "cranked Hiwatt" tone is a Dr.Z KT-45 at half volume. :p

"Live at Leeds" did the job on so many of us, didn't it?
Click to expand...


Hell yeah! I was brought up on classical music, hated the majority of pop and rock music, had a guitar that i tried to play by beating to death. One day I was crawling through my dads record collection, 5 minutes later of "Young man Blues" and the world finally made sense to me! :D :D :D
 
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