Looking for some advice here

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Richard Monroe

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Well, on Saturday, I'm going to be doing something the wrong way, and I have very little experience with it, so anybody's input may give me useful ideas. It's a live studio recording of a 4 piece band in a very small room. The band is acoustic guitar/vocalist, electric lead, electric bass, and a small drum kit. Yeah, I would greatly prefer to lay down a scratch track of acoustic and vox, track the drums and bass, then overdub the appropriate parts, use click tracks, double the lead, etc., etc., but they aren't having any part of it. I've suggested a larger pro studio where they can have separate tracking rooms, etc., but they aren't going for that either. The material is classic early rock and rockabilly. OK, so we're going to do it WRONG, IMHO. The question is how to do it wrong as well as I can.
I don't know yet what the acoustic guy is using for an axe, but in a worst case scenario, he can use my Taylor, which has a Fishman stereo blender in it. There's a semi anechoid vocal booth with a heavily treated ceiling, which can be opened up enough for the drum kit. Here's what I have to do it with:

The main preamps are an Avalon AD2022 and a Joemeek twinQ, and a Digi002, which provides 4 more channels of middle of the road preamps. So I could use up to 8 simultaneous ins, although it may be less. I'm a less is more person.

Mics-
Condensers-B.L.U.E. Kiwi, Baby Bottle. Rode NTK, Oktava MK319, AKG C414B-ULS, C2000B. Shure SM82, Oktava MC012 (2), Studio Projects B-1, C-4 (2), Neumann KM184 (2)

Dynamics- Shure SM57, SM7B, AKG D690, D770, D320B, D112, Oktava ML52 ribbon

OK, for a jumping off point, here's my plan A- Take a line off the Taylor with SM7B on vox. The Taylor goes straight to a Fender PD250 Passport PA, using the Fishman's EQ and notch control for feedback control. The SM7 goes to the Joemeek, and then line out to the Passport line in. This allows me to use the EQ and the compressor of the Joemeek for feedback reduction and tone shaping, Bass and lead are using small amps, and like the tone of the amps. I don't think the bass amp has a line out.
Then, the whole thing gets recorded in stereo, using the KM184's into the Avalon. My guess is, if we can get the drummer to play softly enough (waaay light sticks), then we just start moving things around. Feedback will be the enemy. By moving the speaker cabs of the PA and the amps, and the Neumanns around, the relative level of the different instruments can be adjusted somewhat. We get acoustic/vox as loud as possible without feedback, adjust the volume of the amps, and pray the drummer has control.
I might also try sticking a dynamic on the acoustic, and sending that to the Joemeek for EQ/Compression, and then to the PA. More feedback problems, more cables and stands. I may put an RNC between the Avalon and Digi002, so I can lightly compress the stereo mix going in. Well that's my first pass.
Any different ideas are greatly appreciated. We'll probably do about 4 songs, so I think I'm looking at a 4 hour sound check followed by 30 minutes of actual tracking. Suggestions?-Richie
 
I say go with, and trust, your instincts on this one. Only you know what's best given your setup, and you're a pretty sharp guy, so we all trust you to do the right thing on this one, Richie. :D
 
Chessrock, thanks for your kind words. Yeah, I have a plan, but I've always found it useful to get input from the board when entering unexplored territory. Even people who totally disagree with me sometimes give me ideas for stuff to try that can be very helpful. I think this is going to be a frustrating and fun session.- Richie
 
I don't get these guys. If they were big into authenticity, they'd use a standup bass. I played standup once in this exact type of ensemble, and it absolutely kills. But they are right in that they need to cut this live.

Anyhew, I think you have a good Plan A, but I'd put the KM184s behind the vocalist since he's covered already, and more towards the drums In fact I think I'd make the vocalist face the rest of the band, to cut down on bleed into his mike.

Plan B would be a condenser back a couple of feet, head high, for both the vocals and the guitar. I don't think a direct acoustic is the right sound for this style. The guitarist needs to strum pretty hard, but it should still be quiet in the mix. You might want to save the SM7 for the bass cab. Might as well throw a 57 at the guitar cab, just in case the guitarist isn't good at bringing up his own level for the solo. Like you said, I would NOT use a kick mic or any other drum mic, there is very little kick on those '50s recordings.

I also don't understand the comment about feedback. These guys won't even wear headphones? Yikes.
 
Richard I don't see in your post where the Band or Producer (you possibly ?) are actually going for classic rock or vintage rockabilly sounds so that might give you some lee-way.

The fact that the room is small (low ceiling too I guess) and there are drums in there (along with a PA) forces you into close micing so you can try to create a 'room' when you mix since the sound probably won't develop enough while the band is playing (if the room is that small). Looks like you've got that covered since it looks like you're going to close mic. If everybody is bunched in thight like that then you'll certainly need some sound isolation between amps & drums. It looks like you're gonna stuff the drums in the vocal booth (does the band know this ?) for isolation...except the drums might be coming out the PA too?

I seems like you have a lot of technical things covered as best as you can - have you put on your Producer hat enough to discuss what is going on with the Band ? These folks seem like 'feel' players - they want to organic, synergistic vibe you get when everyone is on the same stage playin, groovin, and feeling the music. Trouble is, for whatever reason, they're being recorded in an undersized (?) room that they're sure to overdrive. The drummer isn't gonna feel good cause he doesn't feel the bass guitar (or the bass of his own kick probably), he'll probably also not take kindly to being asked to adjust his volume or use different sticks, the bassist maybe won't hear the kick (unless there's a click somewhere) there's likely to be feedback in the PA, there's no headphone mix (? I assume because of the 'feel' factor), the vocalist is going to wonder whay they're not gettin into it and there's sound bouncin around everywhere...

Anyway - those are some things that could happen (not saying they will) if the band walks into the small room (have they played in it before?) without a prior heads up - that's why I mention talking to them about it as a Producer to give them some pros & cons regarding their approach. You already did this I'll bet! And like you say - if they play soft enough it could be OK.
 
If it were me, my first try would be like this..

Everybody uses headphones.

Singer/Acoustic gtr, In the booth, as isolated as possible, 1 mic for vox and 1 for the guitar, you'll get the best clean sounds this way, and overdubs for his parts would be possible if he's isolated, I'm assuming there's a window so that eye contact with the rest of the band is possible.

Bass, DI

Electric gtr, Small amp, isolated from the drumset as much as possible with a couple of gobos, or better yet, in a seperate room.

Drums, 4 mics, Kick, Snare, 2 OH's

That's 8 tracks.

:)
 
Well I think MShilarious has got the concept. Think 1965, not 1957. That's right, no headphones (except me). Strydder's trying to tell me how to do it right (tried that). Direct acoustic? Maybe. The acoustic is a Martin with a Fishman stereo blender in it, which I am *very* familiar with. Bright point- these guys practice in a room that is almost exactly the same size. My room is *much* better conditioned than theirs. Yeah, I've got a plan for how to do it right, but it isn't going to happen. The bass would go DI through the Avalon. Lead in a "monster in a box" as per Jon Chappell. The drummer would get the Oktavas for OH's, 57 on snare, D112 on kick, vox into whatever sounds good on that singer (?Kiwi ?NTK)
No feedback, minimal bleed. Note- there is no "other room". Hell, I could do that, but-
No, this is a *stereo* recording of live sound in a live room, essentially 2 tracks. I figure the Neumanns into the Avalon is my best 2 clean, honest channels. Vox and acoustic into a PA, whether the acoustic is mic'd internally or externally depends on feedback. If it were up to me, I'd put the 414 or the SM82 (my best 2 guitar mics) on the acoustic, but they are both sensitive as hell, and have to run into a PA, so dynamics without a hell of a lot of reach seem like a better bet. I've been testng different dynamics on my acoustic, and frankly, my taste runs more toward the AKG D770 than SM57. If space and time will allow (lots of cables, stands, etc. in small room) I'll close mic with condensers that *don't* go into the PA and use those tracks as necessary to augment the basic stereo tracks. So I'm really using a small PA as a headphone substitute. The vocal booth is really just an area with a heavily treated ceiling once the soft walls are removed. The amps are the least of my problem, as they can be positioned so they will be picked up well by the Neumanns. The biggest problem is positioning the PA cabs so they don't feed back, and the drummer can hear them. I like the idea of having the singer/acoustic face the rest of the band with the Neumanns on the other side. All we do is reverse the guitar and bass cabs so they face the Neumanns. That's exactly what I meant by cool ideas that help. That was a good one, keep it coming.-Richie
 
I think youve got the right idea on how to do it if thats what they are demanding. I cant think of any better way. I think no matter what you do in this situation its going to sound like crap.

And thats what i think you also need to put into consideration. If i were in this kind of situation i would start looking at other possible outcomes. Take a few of these questions into consideration. Might need to be a little manipulative.

Do you need their business? Thats a little broad and indirect so think of it like this. Are they going to get a better recording if they go to someone else? Whos going to be listening to this CD. Since its probably not going to be you greatest work because of all these weird circumstances that are going to screw with the sound, think about who the audience is going to be. If its going to go to people who love this type of music and love the ways it was recorded back in the day then it really shouldnt matter much. But if its also going to an audience that you are trying to captivate with good recording services, you might want to reconsider offering your services to this band. You will get the blame if people consider the recording to be bad, not the band. So now if you deny them service in a professional mature manner, is it going to affect your clientell? If this band is just a nobody band then is it really going to affect it? it might alittle, but will it affect it as much as putting something out that sounds like shit? Thats for you to decide. Guess the last thing to consider is how much money are they paying you, and do you need the money NOW but with the possibility of loosing money later.

This is just part of the business part of studio life. As much as i love to work with every band that comes to my studio, i still have to be strict when it comes to things like this.

I dont know what this bands position is, but if it were me with the sounds of it, i would put on a more of a my way or the highway kind of tone. My position is probably a little different because there isnt alot of competition where im at, so the first question is in my favor. But if you give the band a feeling that you dont have to do their work and you are doing them a favor, its much easier to work with them. Most likely they will still record with you but work with you with the knowledge that you know best. The trick will be in you communication. Give the impression that you know best for the sound and their budget without acting like a prick and they will listen.

If your low on cash and you need the money now, then just do it :D. But what ever you do, make sure they understand the pros and cons, and that they confirm that they understand what the different possibly outcomes could be by doing it the way they want.

Ive got a good story that ties in with that. A while ago i did a project for a old western country group. The old school stuff, not the twangy. The band was really nice, i loved working with them, was good at paying, and was pretty well known. However for this project he insisted that everything was done live. This consisted of drums, bass, 3 guitars, and 4 vocals. I insisted we put drums in an isolation room, where there would be audio communication but no visual. He said he wanted to have everyone in the same room for visual communication. I told him the cons and some consequences that could happen if we did it that way. He said he was willing to accept the consequences. It was an incredibly extreme project. 40 songs live in one night!! Then the next day i had to mix all 40 of the songs.

The group had been together for close to 15 years. They had tried other studios in the past and non gave them the product he was looking for. He was stressed that i wouldnt be able to do it. I was very convincing that i could.

I finished mixing and had him come in to listen to all the songs and confirm they were mixed the way he wanted them. He loved them. Said they were perfect. So i mixed them down, pre mastered them and sent him home with CD after payment. I got a call back the next day telling me that it was perfect, just the way he wanted it to be. He said he even almost cried. He also mentioned he was looking forward to doing much more work with me. Including another 40 song CD like the one before (can i really put up with another one of those).

Month later he calls me back complaining that the drums were mixed too loud on a few songs. I new this was true because it was caused by bleed from the vocal mics. I did the best i could with it but obviously not good enough. He was expecting me to redo the work for free.

Tough situation right there. Good client, but shouldnt be my responsibility. How much am i going to lose? Some say i should say hes right now matter what, some say i should be professional and explain that he confirmed it, without pointing fingers.

No i protect myself with things written on my policy that the client actually signs, so they understand these situations before they happen, so they dont happen. Guess my advice is to try and do the same.

Danny
 
I read somewhere that Johnny Winter records in a similar fashion. His system uses a central condencer mic to record everything in mono, and mic each instrument so they can be adjusted in the mix to bring things out as needed. I don't know if this is true or not (about Winter recording this way) but I have used the idea and it works pretty well, but only if you can get a pretty fair mix of sound and volume from the musicians.
 
Well first, Darnold, they're not paying customers. It's a piece of barter. I need their bass player for some session work, and I get out of paying union scale by doing this for them. No, it won't sound like crap, if I have anything to say about it. It's a challenge. Well, maybe the noise floor involved will help me talk them into doing it right. Am I producing them? Hell no. They're too fucking stubborn. I just want their bass player for about 6 cuts.
Now, it gets interesting. I've reconfigured the tracking room quite a bit to prepare for this, and the acoustic guitarist will face the rest of them, with the guitar and bass cabs reversed to face the stereo mics. The next step was to select the vox and acoustic mics, which are critical. They have to sound good through this little PA, and feedback resistance is the key. Early on, I selected Shure SM7B as the vocal mic, because it resists feedback and takes well to EQ. It goes into the twinQ, where it gets EQ'd, and compressed. Then line out to the line in on the PA.
The tough part was the guitar mic. My best guitar mics all fed back like a mother- C414, SM82, NTK, Baby Bottle. Switched to SM57-FEEDBACK!!! (and it sounded like shit). I'd try the Neumanns, but that's the stereo pair- not. Tried MC012- didn't feed back as bad, sounded like shit. AKG D320B- ka-ching! Very little feedback with the first level bass cut engaged, sounded pretty good, usable. Then Studio Projects C-4- Bingo!!! No feedback at twice the output that made the 414 feed back, sounds just fine. Who woulda thunk? C-4 as live guitar mic.
Well we'll be doing it live in house tomorrow, and I'll let y'all know how it went. Thanks for the advice, everybody. Sometimes it's fun to do something you know is the wrong way and try to make it work anyway. That's one of the great things about a project studio. It often forces you to use equipment in ways the manufacturer would never have forseen.-Richie
 
Well, the first session is done, and it looks like there will be a second. It went better than my best hopes. We wound up taking the acoustic direct into the twinQ, and then to the PA. Vox went SM7B > twinQ > TC Electronics M300 for plate reverb and slapback > PA. Backing vox- AKG D320B > straight to the PA. We put the PA cabs on the floor and angled one of the KM184's down at the PA cab right over the drummer's shoulder. The KM184 on the other side of the room angled down at the other PA cab, and the lead guitar amp on an amp stand, angled up at the Neumann. Both KM184's into the Avalon, as planned. I managed to talk the singer into wearing cans, so being behind the PA cabs wasn't really a problem. And... Holy shit! It rocked! Shockingly low noise floor, considering. I spent most of the morning EQ'ing the stereo mix. I tracked with light compression, about 2:1, just to keep them in line. It really does have a sound that is reminiscent of some old Buddy Holly recording. I have to say, the Neumanns and the Avalon really came through on this one. Certain mics, as you know, just like certain preamps, and I think the Avalon and the KM184's are planning to get married. Thanks again for the advice, everone.-Richie
 
your way or the highway

hey man - record drums and bass (direct only) and have guitarist play electric (direct/pod/whatever) no vocals. overdub acoustic and vocals - if they don't go for it, tell them to go to a rehearsal space and push record on the tape deck because all you're going to get quality-wise is a nice live recording. good luck -b
 
Chango- you don't get it. A nice live recording is what they wanted. We're not making a studio album here. No overdubs, no comp'd tracks, no doubled tracks, no mixdown, no headphones, no isolation, no DI, nada. That's the fun part, recording 1964 material with 1964 technique. People like Al Schmitt and George Martin rewrote the book on studio recording in the late '60's, and yes, I'm up on current events. Did I mention no click track, no pitch correction, no synths, no amp modelers? The Silvertone bass and the Gretsch lead were perfect. The amps looked like suitcases. We're talking pre- wah-wah here. The only thing I don't have a sim for is wow and flutter. It was actually a lot of fun.-Richie
 
Congrats Richie!! I've tried the "all at the same time" recording thing lots of times and it sounds like you have had a lot more luck than i have. I've been working with some guys who want an all at once for a demo (they figure if they cant do it live, they dont want to record it) I'm going to try some of your ideas next time and hope that I get the same results as you did.
 
If anyone wants to hear an album that was recorded entirely live and with a great sound, see if you can get hold of Rocket From The Crypt's RFTC. I don't know what the set up was, but it's a good example of recording a whole band at once. And it's an awesome album.
 
Well, pass #2 is done. I switched backing vox to a C414 in figure 8, into the Joemeek, and then to the PA, so the lead and bass player can face each other while singing, The center position of the figure 8 also acts as a room mic, and pans the drum kit closer to center, rather than panned hard left, as room position dictates. The PA cabs were placed on stands, to put them closer to the stereo pair, increasing gain-before-feedback. I switched the acoustic guy to my Taylor, just for its better pickup system. It went so well, that I've talked them into a third pass, *my way*.
All righty, then. My way (semi-live)- The lead guitar amp gets bolted into an isolation box in another room with an E609 silver, into the Avalon. Bass goes straight into the Avalon. Acoustic/lead vox in another room, with the vox as a scratch track. Acoustic is my Taylor, into POD Pro (can't get him to use a mic). Lead vox will be re-tracked in the vocal booth with NTK into Joemeek twinQ (suits his voice). Drums with the KM184's as overheads into the Joemeek. Kick is D112 and snare is AKG D320B, both into the Digi002's Focusrite pres or DMP-3, either will work. Finally, we overdub backing vox with the 414. Then, I *mix* the godamned thing. Everybody gets headphones. That's as close as I can come to *the right way*. Thanks again for the suggestions.-Richie
 
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